Muv-Luv question

[DarkZedge]

For a while now i've been looking into this particular Vn and at first it seemed like it'd be something i'd be intereste in and i liked some of the opinions i've heard aswell regarding it but somewhere along the lines i started to come across all sorts of bashing and overall dislike for it from a lot of different places. No longer could i find people saying many good things about it and in the end i decided that i'd ask you guys since thus far you've never let me down with your opinions, reviews and general knowledge about recommendations and such.

My question a this moment  would be: Is Muv-Luv as bad of a Vn as i've heard or is it just bashing without reason as i've seen happen in other cases, what would your opinon of this particular Vn be? last but not least would you recommend it?

 

As always thanks everyone

[Deep Blue]

play it, without that shitty ending (and this is subjective) for me is a 10/10 vn. Also you need to play extra and unlimited it is almost mandatory to do so if you really want to experience the novel in a 100%.

[Zenophilious]

Extra is the one everyone shits on.  It's supposed to be pretty awful in the sense that nothing interesting happens and it's a run-of-the-mill moege.  It was supposedly meant to be like that, though, so that Unlimited and Alternative were such surprises.

[DarkZedge]

6 minutes ago, Zenophilious said:

Extra is the one everyone shits on.  It's supposed to be pretty awful in the sense that nothing interesting happens and it's a run-of-the-mill moege.  It was supposedly meant to be like that, though, so that Unlimited and Alternative were such surprises.

Well i was gonna start with the first one as anyone would and that's the one i've seen bashed the most so far. But i haven't looked into the other ones as of yet

 

7 minutes ago, Deep Blue said:

play it, without that shitty ending (and this is subjective) for me is a 10/10 vn. Also you need to play extra and unlimited it is almost mandatory to do so if you really want to experience the novel in a 100%.

I was planning to play them all but i got a bit hesitant after seeing the bashing the first one was getting or got. I didn't find any particular complaints about the ending though, people seemed unhappy with it overall

[EcchiOujisama]

There is a lot to like and a lot to dislike.  Extra, Unlimited and Alternative all have their strengths and weaknesses.  It is very much a series of extremes, the good is very good and the bad is very bad.  I talked about this in some detail with another forum user so I'll copy/paste what I said for your convenience.  If you have any other questions let me know.      

 

How much you read before Alternative is largely up to you and your preferences. To start with, the first two games of the series, Extra and Unlimited, are packaged together. In order to get access to Unlimited you must clear the Meiya and Sumika routes in Extra. There are three other routes in Extra, and honestly, even though I like Iinchou and Ayamine a lot as characters, the story they decide to tell is largely something I didn't want to see. From a storyline standpoint I actually liked Tama's route, even though the thought of doing an H scene with her makes me throw up a bit in my mouth. I would still suggest you play every route in Extra. Why? The characters introduced in these routes will show up in Alternative, and their appearance and roles will make far more sense. I also loved the "bad" end with Marimo, which I thought was awesome and wouldn't call a bad end at all. It answers a nagging question I had throughout the VN as well.

While we're talking about the world of Muv Luv Extra, this happens in the same world as Kimi ga Nozomu Eien. There are several tie ins with KimiNozo. As it is only in the beginning of being translated, and is one of the longest VNs of all time, it's probably not an option if your kanji isn't at JLPT level 1. I would say watching the TV series is absolutely necessary. You should actually watch it before playing Extra as one of the characters from Kiminozo has a good amount of screen time. Watch Second Season is you want, and watch Akane Maniax after you play Extra for a chance to see some Muv Luv characters in anime. AyuMayu Theater will make far more sense after you play Alternative, so wait on that one.

Unlimited is a different story. All of the routes are the same and the choices you make have almost no impact on the story. Instead of event A happening with character A, you could manipulate it into being character B with enough of the right choices, but the differences are minor. There is no reason to play the game more than once unless you want to see the H scene of another character. The endings are all EXACTLY the fucking same, to the point that it doesn't feel true to the characters. It's done to plant seeds for Alternative and it makes sense now in retrospect, but it drags on a LOT when playing for 100% and felt like a big fuck you from the writer to the fanbase IMO. I'd suggest making choices that seem like they will maximize time with your favorite character and to play Alternative before going through the game again. Clearing it to 100% after the first character was brutal.

Alternative is extremely linear. The choices you make have only a minor impact on the story, and after going back through it to see what would happen with all of the opposite choices, there's basically no difference. The game gives you a big middle finger by having zero benefits after clearing the game. No soundtracks. No CG gallery. Nothing. It's like "Oh, you just forked over 60 hours of your life and thought that would let you listen to the game's music? Well fuck you." There are only 2 H scenes in the whole game, and they're both with a character I wouldn't even want to bang in real life.

Now that I've said all of the bad parts about it, on the whole it's really great. Just about everything I didn't like in Extra and Unlimited tied into the story and paid off in a way that made sense. The effects that they pull off are visually stunning. While the others would have points where the story was interesting and would then drag, this went more than 10 hours before it even came close to slowing down once. The more you pay attention to little details in the prior games the more you are rewarded in Alternative. Alternative doesn't expect you to remember every hint about the way things might go and reminds you of lines here and there when foreshadowing is paid off. As you go farther into Alternative you'll be glad you at least watched KimiNozo as a lot of characters from Kimizono appear, and are true to the characters you've come to know. There aren't a lot of areas that are light-hearted in this one, but it will grab you by the balls and not let go for hours at a time. The ending is certainly divisive, you'll probably love or hate it, but the ending of the ending gave me huge blue balls for Altered Fable. I can't wait to play it.

[Deep Blue]

extra is not bad it is the prelude to unlimited and alternative, you cannot have alternative and unlimited(really boring too) without extra, extra is pure character development, yes it is boring and yes there is nothing going on but you will understand why after reading alternative. Again you can't have one without other, they are escencially the same game

[Zenophilious]

1 minute ago, Deep Blue said:

extra is not bad it is the prelude to unlimited and alternative, you cannot have alternative and unlimited(really boring too) without extra, extra is pure character development, yes it is boring and yes there is nothing going on but you will understand why after reading alternative. Again you can't have one without other, they are escencially the same game

I'm just repeating what I've heard.  I'm waiting for the official versions to come out before I read 'em.  Ixrec's TLs kinda irritate me, so I'd like the MuvLuvs to be as cleaned up as possible before I start reading.  Still not gonna skip Extra, though.

[DarkZedge]

2 minutes ago, EcchiOujisama said:

There is a lot to like and a lot to dislike.  Extra, Unlimited and Alternative all have their strengths and weaknesses.  It is very much a series of extremes, the good is very good and the bad is very bad.  I talked about this in some detail with another forum user so I'll copy/paste what I said for your convenience.  If you ahve any other questions let me know.      

 

How much you read before Alternative is largely up to you and your preferences. To start with, the first two games of the series, Extra and Unlimited, are packaged together. In order to get access to Unlimited you must clear the Meiya and Sumika routes in Extra. There are three other routes in Extra, and honestly, even though I like Iinchou and Ayamine a lot as characters, the story they decide to tell is largely something I didn't want to see. From a storyline standpoint I actually liked Tama's route, even though the thought of doing an H scene with her makes me throw up a bit in my mouth. I would still suggest you play every route in Extra. Why? The characters introduced in these routes will show up in Alternative, and their appearance and roles will make far more sense. I also loved the "bad" end with Marimo, which I thought was awesome and wouldn't call a bad end at all. It answers a nagging question I had throughout the VN as well.

 

While we're talking about the world of Muv Luv Extra, this happens in the same world as Kimi ga Nozomu Eien. There are several tie ins with KimiNozo. As it is only in the beginning of being translated, and is one of the longest VNs of all time, it's probably not an option if your kanji isn't at JLPT level 1. I would say watching the TV series is absolutely necessary. You should actually watch it before playing Extra as one of the characters from Kiminozo has a good amount of screen time. Watch Second Season is you want, and watch Akane Maniax after you play Extra for a chance to see some Muv Luv characters in anime. AyuMayu Theater will make far more sense after you play Alternative, so wait on that one.

 

Unlimited is a different story. All of the routes are the same and the choices you make have almost no impact on the story. Instead of event A happening with character A, you could manipulate it into being character B with enough of the right choices, but the differences are minor. There is no reason to play the game more than once unless you want to see the H scene of another character. The endings are all EXACTLY the fucking same, to the point that it doesn't feel true to the characters. It's done to plant seeds for Alternative and it makes sense now in retrospect, but it drags on a LOT when playing for 100% and felt like a big fuck you from the writer to the fanbase IMO. I'd suggest making choices that seem like they will maximize time with your favorite character and to play Alternative before going through the game again. Clearing it to 100% after the first character was brutal.

 

Alternative is extremely linear. The choices you make have only a minor impact on the story, and after going back through it to see what would happen with all of the opposite choices, there's basically no difference. The game gives you a big middle finger by having zero benefits after clearing the game. No soundtracks. No CG gallery. Nothing. It's like "Oh, you just forked over 60 hours of your life and thought that would let you listen to the game's music? Well fuck you." There are only 2 H scenes in the whole game, and they're both with a character I wouldn't even want to bang in real life.

 

Now that I've said all of the bad parts about it, on the whole it's really great. Just about everything I didn't like in Extra and Unlimited tied into the story and paid off in a way that made sense. The effects that they pull off are visually stunning. While the others would have points where the story was interesting and would then drag, this went more than 10 hours before it even came close to slowing down once. The more you pay attention to little details in the prior games the more you are rewarded in Alternative. Alternative doesn't expect you to remember every hint about the way things might go and reminds you of lines here and there when foreshadowing is paid off. As you go farther into Alternative you'll be glad you at least watched KimiNozo as a lot of characters from Kimizono appear, and are true to the characters you've come to know. There aren't a lot of areas that are light-hearted in this one, but it will grab you by the balls and not let go for hours at a time. The ending is certainly divisive, you'll probably love or hate it, but the ending of the ending gave me huge blue balls for Altered Fable. I can't wait to play it.

Thank you for the great summary of the whole series with such detail. it seems from what you said that they originally had a great thing going but somewhere along the lines they fucked up in the one that followed the two that were bundled together, did i get that right?

Also seems like the series also has a lot of positive going for it even if when it's bad seems to hit pretty low as you said. This kinda helped me decide a bit more on giving it a go mostly because i was interested and it did appeal to me also struck my curiosity from this summary

 

[Deep Blue]

2 minutes ago, Zenophilious said:

I'm just repeating what I've heard.  I'm waiting for the official versions to come out before I read 'em.  Ixrec's TLs kinda irritate me, so I'd like the MuvLuvs to be as cleaned up as possible before I start reading.  Still not gonna skip Extra, though.

if you skip them you are going to regret it later on, one because alternative throws you in the middle of a plot with a lot of things going on, is like playing f/sn spoiler of f/sn ahead!

Spoiler

but you already know that shirou is archer, something like that, yes you can play it but what's the point :/ even if everything until that point was dull the pay off  in the end is worth it.

and even if you dont mind all the plot that you are missing till that part trust me it wont be the same by the end of the game, I don't want to say much because anything will be spoiling the game.

[DarkZedge]

So i should start HERE  and then follow HERE , correct? or something along those lines? I'm getting dizzy after that...there's like a million

[Deep Blue]

yes, play muv luv (it includes extra and unlimited in the same game) and then play alternative which is another game.

[EcchiOujisama]

 

7 minutes ago, DarkZedge said:

Thank you for the great summary of the whole series with such detail. it seems from what you said that they originally had a great thing going but somewhere along the lines they fucked up in the one that followed the two that were bundled together, did i get that right?

Also seems like the series also has a lot of positive going for it even if when it's bad seems to hit pretty low as you said. This kinda helped me decide a bit more on giving it a go mostly because i was interested and it did appeal to me also struck my curiosity from this summary

 

You've basically got it right.  The first two games are what they are, you'll see when you go through them.  The experience is interesting as it contains one of my favorite (Meiya) and most hated (Sumika) characters in any VN.  Opinions on the end of Alternative are widely varied, but you'll probably react strongly one way or the other.  Here's what I recommend.

1.Watch the Kimi ga Nozomu Eien (also called Rumbling Hearts) anime.     

2.Play every route in Muv-Luv Extra.

3.Play the route of your favorite character in Muv-Luv Unlimited.

4.(Optional) Watch Akane Maniax OVA.  It's not particularly great, but you'll get to see Iinchou and the world's greatest physics teacher in anime form.  Stars Suzumiya Akane (no relation to Haruhi).

5.Muv-Luv Alternative

6.Watch AyuMayu Theatre.  It's SO awesome when you get the Muv-Luv jokes, and makes you think the writers were on acid when you don't.  

If you end up liking Haruko after you get through Extra you could play Haruko Maniax (translated) at any time, as it doesn't tie in to the rest of the series at all.  On the plus side you'll get to see Haruko's awesome body, on the creepy side the H scenes are her little brother imagining her doing different guys.  A penny's worth of free advice - the game gives the option of skipping the H scenes and viewing them later, and it's actually better to go through the story and view the H scenes on their own afterwards.  Just take my word for it.   

[gijimu]

I became fan of Muv-Luv franchise after finishing Muv-Luv Alternative. It led me to Muv-Luv Alternative Chronicles, Muv-Luv Alternative Total Eclipse, and Schwarzesmarken. Muv-Luv is a large fictional alternative history world on its own. 

Imo, Muv-Luv Extra is a typical slice-of-life high school comedy VN, with a genre shift after you finished the two main heroines' route, which is darker and more serious. Muv-Luv Alternative is a climax of the trilogy where you'll actually see the rest of Muv-Luv world. Actually, I finished Muv-Luv Alternative first then Muv-Luv Extra second, so maybe I'm missing some feeling, but Muv-Luv Alternative alone packs quite a punch. 

You may need Muv-Luv Altered Fable after finishing Muv-Luv Alternative, just in case... 

[atorq]

I did the horrible stupid thing that you absolutely never should do and read Alternative first, and you know what? It is still an excellent experience.

There are like two things that are confusing in the first minutes, then it catches you up to speed and everything is awesome.  I do not understand why people who calls Extra shit (it's actually pretty good in my opinion, but i like that kind of thing) keep on insisting that you have to read it first, sure there's some character development and you might be a bit more connected to the characters at the start of Alternative but at the end of the day Alternative is certainly capable of standing on it's own two legs.

I would say give Extra and Unlimited (that's the boring part in my opinion) a try, if you don't like, fuck it, read Alternative.

[gijimu]

10 minutes ago, atorq said:

I did the horrible stupid thing that you absolutely never should do and read Alternative first, and you know what? It is still an excellent experience.

There are like two things that are confusing in the first minutes, then it catches you up to speed and everything is awesome.  I do not understand why people who calls Extra shit (it's actually pretty good in my opinion, but i like that kind of thing) keep on insisting that you have to read it first, sure there's some character development and you might be a bit more connected to the characters at the start of Alternative but at the end of the day Alternative is certainly capable of standing on it's own two legs.

I would say give Extra and Unlimited (that's the boring part in my opinion) a try, if you don't like, fuck it, read Alternative.

I felt vague about the world of Alternative when playing it first, like why the protagonist seems to know everything that's about to happen and stuffs. But after playing until middle of the story, the background story become more insignificant. Just like playing Grisaia without knowing Yuuji's and heroines' background, but slowly you'll get the glimpse of them later. 

[Vorathiel]

I personally don't really get why Muv Luv Extra (the first one) get so much shit. It's slice of life comedy, with short branching rpoutes. It's silly, it's over the top, it's rather dumb, but it's (for me at last) very funny. I remember laughing out loud few times, and that is not a common thing for me, while reading VNs. So don't believe in opinions try it for yourself.

But still - I would recommend to wait a few months with MuvLuv series. In March we will get official release, with polished translation of Muv Luv Extra/Unlimited, then few months after polished (and polishing is really needed here!) Muv Luv Alernative, and next few months later we will get photonlowers and photonflowers, which are basically all fandiscs combined in two 'packs'. So far I read only 'Muv Luv Altered Fable' from those fandiscs, and it is my favourite chapter of Muv Luv series (although not canon, it still not contradicts anything and could be canon). Especially right after Alternative, I found myself in need to live with those muvluv characters for a longer piece of time, and in some lighter form. And Altered Fable was PERFECT for that.

So basically - wait for a few months. And if translation of Kimi ga Nozomu Eien (which is being made as we speak) suddenly be done at that point - the better, and maybe you should think of starting muvluv adventure reading here, not on Muv Luv Extra. But I haven't read it yet, so will not voice my oppinion on it.

And you said there is like million - yeah, it is. Muv Luv chronicles, total eclipse etc. But don't mind them. Main story is MuvLuv Extra/Unlimited - MuvLuv ALternative - (MuvLuv Altered Fable which is perfect afterstory). Everything else is just additional stories with new characters in that universum, sometimes with recurring characters from main series, but not in main points of these stories.

Few words at the end of this post:

- Kei Ayamine best girl in Extra
- Kasumi Yashiro best girl in Unlimited (Tama far away second, cause no bond was made with Ayamine in my opinion)
- Kasumi Yashiro best girl in Alternative (Kei Ayamine far away second)
- Kashiwagi Haruko best girl in Altered Fable (although I HATED 'her' story in fandisc called Haruko Maniax - I will talk about that in spoiler below)

And while I gave MuvLuv series grades like 7; 8; 8.5; 7.8 is by far my favourite series. Although has it flaws, and f.e Steins;Gate is much, much better vn, my love for ML is incontestable.
It started with really hating the art style on screens on vndb, and really hating the game in first like 20 minutes (art style, stupid Tsundere right at the start etc), but it was really short time till I started loving this. Reall rollercoaster of emotions, really low level of 'cancer', really an Experience, not only a 'just a vn'.


Haruko Maniax:
 

Spoiler

Through whole MuvLuv series protagonist is Takeru. And after spending above 80 hours 'as him' I came across Haruko Maniax. I loved Haruko in Altered Fable so I wanted to check it out. And... it was painfull. Like really painful. Those h scenes, which were including a Haruko and some completly new guy, were so wrong to read. He was not a Takeru, he wasn't even a protagonist of Haruko Maniax! And he was so persistend in those h scenes, even when Haruko was saying him to stop, etc (I know it's a common thing in vns, but it still is wrong...). It was like reading a scenefrom a perspective of a rapist who is raping your favourite character [to not use the word 'waifu' :P]. It was painfull, it was terrible, it made me nauseous. If it was Takeru, in whom I projected myself - then fine, go on, it's fine, it's me. But here... I was jus terribly jealous. Painful, painful experience.

 

[Stormwolf]

Doesn't vn creators avoid using girls from one series in another which has another guy? I was under the impression that it was more or less a death sentence for someone to create something like that.

[Vorathiel]

Now I can clearly see why.

[Scorp]

10 hours ago, Vorathiel said:

I personally don't really get why Muv Luv Extra (the first one) get so much shit. It's slice of life comedy, with short branching rpoutes. It's silly, it's over the top, it's rather dumb, but it's (for me at last) very funny. I remember laughing out loud few times, and that is not a common thing for me, while reading VNs. So don't believe in opinions try it for yourself.

If that bunch of idiotic brainless non-interesting time-wasting scenes named "Muv-Luv Extra" is fun and good slice of life comedy for you... Well, that's a bad taste. Read and watch more slice of life and comedies, educate yourself and if you come back to this one years later - I think you will change your opinion about this worthless time waster.

[Vorathiel]

12 minutes ago, Scorp said:

If that bunch of idiotic brainless non-interesting time-wasting scenes named "Muv-Luv Extra" is fun and good slice of life comedy for you... Well, that's a bad taste. Read and watch more slice of life and comedies, educate yourself and if you come back to this one years later - I think you will change your opinion about this worthless time waster.

Any titles you would recommend to 'educate myself'?

[Scorp]

6 minutes ago, Vorathiel said:

Any titles you would recommend to 'educate myself'?

Clannad, Hoshizora no Memoria, eden*, Symphonic Rain (this is if speak only about "slice of life" aspect). Even Majikoi. And Grisaia.

Virtually anything is better than Extra. Even Katawa Shoujo and Everlasting Summer is better.

[Vorathiel]

14 minutes ago, Scorp said:

Clannad, Hoshizora no Memoria, eden*, Symphonic Rain (this is if speak only about "slice of life" aspect). Even Majikoi. And Grisaia.

Virtually anything is better than Extra. Even Katawa Shoujo and Everlasting Summer is better.

First diclaimer - Extra actually doesn't have any typical 'slice of life'. I would say it's just a pure 'slice of life based over the top comedy'. So comparission to something like Clannad is just... apples and oranges.
And indeed, Majikoi has some great comedy in its common route (don't know the rest). But so does MLE.

Buuuut. You mentioned Hoshimemo. Okay, thank you, we're done here. Nothing to talk to you about (I gave that boring piece of cancer shit whole 4.8/10).

[DarkZedge]

40 minutes ago, Vorathiel said:

First diclaimer - Extra actually doesn't have any typical 'slice of life'. I would say it's just a pure 'slice of life based over the top comedy'. So comparission to something like Clannad is just... apples and oranges.
And indeed, Majikoi has some great comedy in its common route (don't know the rest). But so does MLE.

Buuuut. You mentioned Hoshimemo. Okay, thank you, we're done here. Nothing to talk to you about (I gave that boring piece of cancer shit whole 4.8/10).

There's no need to argue because of tastes and opinions guys, what one hates the other may love. that being said i loved Hoshimemo and started ML and so far i'm liking it