Unpopular Opinions: History

[babiker]

I'm very bored, so let's talk about something we don't actually know much about, but are nevertheless very good at discussing: History. Except me of course, I'm that special snowflake that knows everything about history  On we go:

1-Hitler is actually a misunderstood hero of the world who's life should be celebrated

just kidding, but hey he's seriously portrayed way too negatively, even tho most leaders during his time weren't much better

2-The ancient Greeks kinda sucked

The Greeks are regarded as the fathers of many of today's modern concepts: Democracy, Science, Philosophy, etc. But most of these scientists/philosophers were oddities among their own people, treated as badly as criminals. The Greeks, as a people, were much less cool: Slavery was everywhere, their "equality" was only limited to free rich men, women were treated like shit. And only Athens was a barely decent democracy, other places, most popularly Sparta and Macedonia, were pretty big dictatorships.

That's all I'm bothered to type for now, feel free to share your own unpopular opinions, or shit on mine.   

[Fiddle]

On the subject of Greece, I think I'd be pretty cool with a Persian takeover so long as I weren't a Greek land-owning male with conformist political/philosophical opinions. The First Persian Empire basically banned slavery and tolerated all religious practices, and there was presumably a lot of room for regional autonomy.

But the Greeks had that homosexual game going strong.

[hitoribocchi]

Hitler was a good leader.

[solidbatman]

Hitler Konami did nothing wrong

[sub-zer0]

1. Hitler was a great leader,not a good person, but he was a great leader for that era of Germany. He pulled germany out of the depression, gave everyone jobs and food,but he had to use some scapegoats, if he managed to accomplish everything without killing everyone, he would probably be recognized as a hero,but at least he did some good, if he just killed people and did nothing good, then people will hate him for being a dictator.

2.i'm pretty sure that the early civilizations are not as humanitarian as you are , so your way of thinking from the modern perspective is probably wrong compared to their way of thinking, we would automatically think that slavery and inequality is wrong because it doesn't exist in our time period(its mostly gone by the time we are born,the slaves were freed,the women gained right to vote,etc), and how we are educated to think that its wrong. i'm not saying there are no humanitarians that think like you, its just that the society back then viewed it as something normal so they didn't handle it as an issue.humans fear unknown things( much more in the past, and still to this day some are still ignorant to science), so when someone proposes something new, the majority of society will reject it,the smart were treated badly because the general populace was too incompetent to understand or this new idea somehow threatened the power or revenue of a certain group(like how the Roman Catholic Church wanted to hang Copernicus because of his heliocentric theory).  tl:dr ,the greeks may have done things that we view as wrong,but you can't really blame them because during their era, it was pretty normal for them to do, and probably not many people stood out to correct them,so you can't really blame them.

[babiker]

On the subject of Greece, I think I'd be pretty cool with a Persian takeover so long as I weren't a Greek land-owning male with conformist political/philosophical opinions. The First Persian Empire basically banned slavery and tolerated all religious practices, and there was presumably a lot of room for regional autonomy.

But the Greeks had that homosexual game going strong.

The Persians are interesting, although I don't think we know much about how they were as a people from the inside. I would be very interested in learning more about their religious and philosophical views and their roots.

Actually, here's an interesting question: If you were to think of a current, shall we say inheritor of the Persian empire, who'd be your pick? In the sense that America and Western Europe consider themselves inheritor's of Roman/Greek civilization. I guess the main options would be Iran, Russia and Daesh (ISIS). It's hard to put the finger on Russia, since it's not really at war with the west atm, but it does seem to have the Persian Empire's size/power going for it. Iran is were Persia use to be, but other than that I can't really think of a single thing that connects them. Then you have Daesh, a tiny little new state that isn't just challenging the West, but the world. I think I'd go with Russia, as it seems the most fitting

 

[Fiddle]

On the subject of Greece, I think I'd be pretty cool with a Persian takeover so long as I weren't a Greek land-owning male with conformist political/philosophical opinions. The First Persian Empire basically banned slavery and tolerated all religious practices, and there was presumably a lot of room for regional autonomy.

But the Greeks had that homosexual game going strong.

The Persians are interesting, although I don't think we know much about how they were as a people from the inside. I would be very interested in learning more about their religious and philosophical views and their roots.

Actually, here's an interesting question: If you were to think of a current, shall we say inheritor of the Persian empire, who'd be your pick? In the sense that America and Western Europe consider themselves inheritor's of Roman/Greek civilization. I guess the main options would be Iran, Russia and Daesh (ISIS). It's hard to put the finger on Russia, since it's not really at war with the west atm, but it does seem to have the Persian Empire's size/power going for it. Iran is were Persia use to be, but other than that I can't really think of a single thing that connects them. Then you have Daesh, a tiny little new state that isn't just challenging the West, but the world. I think I'd go with Russia, as it seems the most fitting

An interesting question, because our notions of an effective "empire" have become much more different, or at least more subtle, since some decades ago. If there exists any efficient means of world conquest today, I find that it isn't in de jure land grabs, but global domination, such as displacing "evil" dictators to replace them with "good" dictators. In that regard, I believe there's little doubt that the U.S. and Russia have the most influence, but I would be a little biased on making a judgment on which of the two more resembles the belligerence of Persia.

On the subject of Hitler, I'll just throw out this super fun quote by Churchill:

I have always said that if Great Britain were defeated in war I hoped we should find a Hitler to lead us back to our right­ful posi­tion among the nations. I am sorry, how­ever, that he has not been mel­lowed by the great suc­cess that has attended him. The whole world would rejoice to see the Hitler of peace and tol­er­ance, and noth­ing would adorn his name in world his­tory so much as acts of mag­na­nim­ity and of mercy and of pity to the for­lorn and friend­less, to the weak and poor.

[Nashetania]

Europe will go to shit in few years \  / (though it already is).

[Funyarinpa]

Everything about history depresses me to no end, all I can think of is how practically none of them are in better condition than me (part of this is that they have no videogames). I also find history extremely bland, full of bigotry and extremism, all of it makes me feel disgusted. This might partly be because pretty much 90% of all history I've seen is patriotic Ottoman Empire (and Turkish history prior to that) and honestly I hate religious government, and Ottomans were a Muslim empire. I hate Islam, maybe that's why- I utterly LOATHE malice committed in the name of religion, and how religion has been used to justify so much cruelty in history means most things I learn about it fills me with resentment. I hate history. I hate all of it, easily one of my least favorite sciences, alongside geography (which is just boring). I see no "glory" in it, I see no valor, I see is senseless murder and that alone. I detest history. I can't fucking stand history. 

[babiker]

Everything about history depresses me to no end, all I can think of is how practically none of them are in better condition than me (part of this is that they have no videogames). I also find history extremely bland, full of bigotry and extremism, all of it makes me feel disgusted. This might partly be because pretty much 90% of all history I've seen is patriotic Ottoman Empire (and Turkish history prior to that) and honestly I hate religious government, and Ottomans were a Muslim empire. I hate Islam, maybe that's why- I utterly LOATHE malice committed in the name of religion, and how religion has been used to justify so much cruelty in history means most things I learn about it fills me with resentment. I hate history. I hate all of it, easily one of my least favorite sciences, alongside geography (which is just boring). I see no "glory" in it, I see no valor, I see is senseless murder and that alone. I detest history. I can't fucking stand history. 

Well, I sure don't know where to start.... All I can say is that your education seems extremely simplistic and one sided. I guess I can recommend you play games like Age of Empires, civilization, etc that portray many history in a humane and realistic manner from many different perspectives. Age of Empires 2 was actually what got me really into history, so I'd recommend that game in particular over other titles

[Decay]

I had a friend in high school who was all into the whole "Hitler was a great leader!" thing and I actually allowed myself to get swayed by him just a little bit. Then I grew up and actually learned history. Boy, was that ever an extremely fucking embarrassing period of my life.

[Funyarinpa]

Everything about history depresses me to no end, all I can think of is how practically none of them are in better condition than me (part of this is that they have no videogames). I also find history extremely bland, full of bigotry and extremism, all of it makes me feel disgusted. This might partly be because pretty much 90% of all history I've seen is patriotic Ottoman Empire (and Turkish history prior to that) and honestly I hate religious government, and Ottomans were a Muslim empire. I hate Islam, maybe that's why- I utterly LOATHE malice committed in the name of religion, and how religion has been used to justify so much cruelty in history means most things I learn about it fills me with resentment. I hate history. I hate all of it, easily one of my least favorite sciences, alongside geography (which is just boring). I see no "glory" in it, I see no valor, I see is senseless murder and that alone. I detest history. I can't fucking stand history. 

Well, I sure don't know where to start.... All I can say is that your education seems extremely simplistic and one sided. I guess I can recommend you play games like Age of Empires, civilization, etc that portray many history in a humane and realistic manner from many different perspectives. Age of Empires 2 was actually what got me really into history, so I'd recommend that game in particular over other titles

History is inherently depressing for me. Trying to imagine myself in places of any historical figure or person who lived in such an era, and I feel like I'm being suffocated from the heart. It sounds like hell, all of it sounds like hell, in the context of history Earth is Hell slowly cooling down, and I just can't stand the concept. It extends beyond by education, it's my view on the whole concept of history.

[Okami]

I had a friend in high school who was all into the whole "Hitler was a great leader!" thing and I actually allowed myself to get swayed by him just a little bit. Then I grew up and actually learned history. Boy, was that ever an extremely fucking embarrassing period of my life.

History is written by winners, those who lost wars will be portrayed as evil while those who won as just. In reality neater of those things exist in this world.

 

As for the topic itself I could practically write every single of my opinions in this topic, after all popular opinions are those that majority beleafs in and majority of people in this world are complete idiots.

[Fiddle]

I had a friend in high school who was all into the whole "Hitler was a great leader!" thing and I actually allowed myself to get swayed by him just a little bit. Then I grew up and actually learned history. Boy, was that ever an extremely fucking embarrassing period of my life.

Can't underestimate those 24/7 Hitler marathons on the History Channel.

[Valmore]

I had a friend in high school who was all into the whole "Hitler was a great leader!" thing and I actually allowed myself to get swayed by him just a little bit. Then I grew up and actually learned history. Boy, was that ever an extremely fucking embarrassing period of my life.

It depends on the context. While a complete douchebag, Hitler did manage to rally his base of people to a high level of power and conquered a lot of Europe. You don't do that without some sort of leadership skills. That's not to say anyone should admire him or strive to be like him whatsoever. It's really all in how you interpret it. Objectively speaking, Hitler did have success as a leader. Subjectively speaking, he was a dick.

[Zenophilious]

That Stalin and Mao were just as bad as Hitler.  People are always shocked when I say this, but the only reason those two aren't exactly as infamous as Hitler is because they didn't kill 6 million Jews and start WWII.  Their governments were just as repressive and horrible, and they were reportedly responsible for a fairly equal number of deaths as Hitler was (if not more than Hitler was responsible for), but not as many people seem to care since they mostly killed their own citizens.

[Clephas]

1- America made a mistake by forcing Japan to open to foreign trade. 

2- France and England are the ones who sowed the seeds for the mess that is the modern Middle East.

3- Iraq was better off under Saddam Hussein

4- The Founding Fathers of the US were not religious

5- There is no such thing as a true theocracy that does well for its people.

6- War is and almost always has been a diplomatic tool

 

 

[CeruleanGamer]

1. War = profit, therefore necessary. So let's declare war on everybody.... lol jk But the former statement is true though.

2. Nazi's evilness is blown out of proportions. Most deaths in concentration camps were from disease and malnutrition.

3. James K Polk is the best US president. Not Roosevelt, Reagan, or Lincoln. He's decisive and contributed a lot to the US expansion from coast to coast.

4. Japan hides its dark history and teaches incorrect history to their students especially the Nanking Massacre.

5. Batman technically isn't a superhero. He doesn't have "super powers". He has gadgets and his utility belt. Oh wait, this ain't history!  

Edited December 17, 2015 by CeruleanGamer

[Orcka]

1.) "Socialism is bad because it's against human nature." - White 16 year old who just finished a high school US history course. 

2.) We shouldn't overthrow the feudal system, I heard that our lord's son has interesting ideas about crop rotation, we should give him a chance. 

3.) 

4.) Democrats are the pinnacle of progressiveness!

5.) Ima change my profile picture to the French flag, that will show them! 

6.) I AM A SPOOOOOKY DOCTOR AND I HAVE FILLED ALL THE VACCINES WITH AUSTISMOS, BECAUSE REASONS! MUHAHAHAAHHAHAHAAH!!!!!!

[Jade]

1.The 'Dark Ages' era can't exactly be called Dark Ages.

Many invention was made in that era, just not in Europe. The Renaissance are mostly filled with 'invention' that are already discovered in the other side of plent

2.Mao IS a tyrant whose government consume millions of lives . One of the reason why the history don't exactly remember him as such is that despite the Loss of lives, that the China consider Mao's good deed outstrip his bad one

3. Han did not shoot first  

[Down]

You know what this thread lacks that should be the main feature of any history thread? Sources.

Right now it mostly looks like a compilation of buzztopclickbait.com's upcoming articles titles.

[Jade]

You know what this thread lacks that should be the main feature of any history thread? Sources.

Right now it mostly looks like a compilation of buzztopclickbait.com's upcoming articles titles.

Well, it IS opinion after all.

If we starting to bring source i think a war might break out  

[Fiddle]

You know what this thread lacks that should be the main feature of any history thread? Sources.

Right now it mostly looks like a compilation of buzztopclickbait.com's upcoming articles titles.

I only feel like backing up the Greeks' love for homosexual activity.

[babiker]

 

You know what this thread lacks that should be the main feature of any history thread? Sources.

Right now it mostly looks like a compilation of buzztopclickbait.com's upcoming articles titles.

Well, it IS opinion after all.

If we starting to bring source i think a war might break out  

Yeah, that feels a bit too serious. I don't mind everyone BS-ing everywhere, this is the internet after all.

Unless you want a real historical debate about a particular topic, but imo that deserves at least a separate topic, if not another forum entirely.

For a try, let's talk about this:

 History is written by winners

I heard this quote originated from Game of Thrones, but regardless of where it comes from there are few things that are as popular yet as false as this. "Winners" aren't always the ones writing about their glorious battles, sometimes their writings are lost and the writings of the losing side survive, and in some cases the victorious doesn't even know how to write at all. The examples are uncountable: The ancient Persians, which Fiddle mentioned earlier, are known primarily from the writings of their Greek/Roman enemies. The two sides never completely eradicated the other, they were going back and forth for as long as people can remember. But most of Persian literature has been lost. You also have the Vikings, who's stories are mainly written from the English and other people whom were conquered by them. The same can be said for the Mongols, Huns... Actually any people the Roman viewed as "barbaric". We only think of them as barbaric because that's what the Romans wrote, even tho Attila and many other tribes rekt Rome.

So in conclusion, history is written by... The author of the book you're reading lel. You have the example of pretty much all Arab wars with their European counterparts, both sides recorded their own history and both are available today, and yet which account you get  depends on where you are taught. Westerners get that history from their historians, while Muslims get their history from their own historians. And so, I repeat, history is written by whomever had the ability to write and the luck to have his work survive and actually read by people.

[babiker]

I only feel like backing up the Greeks' love for homosexual activity.

First of all one of those is between a guy and a women, and second-MY EYES. Y U DO DIS