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Cliche stories (AKA: unoriginal plot)


firecat

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Jesus, this discussion is already as confused as my dick during the watching of Oni Chichi.

Anyways, I play cliched games because I'm a sucker for certain cliches. If I really like one, I'll play multiple of those cliched games just because it has that one thing I love about it.

Edited by VirginSmasher
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Setting aside the fact that there is no such thing as a story completely free of cliches...

With moege-variants, I look for variations on the formula that do something interesting and new. 

With chuunige... I love a lot of chuunige cliches, because chuunige are like American action movies in some ways... full of cheap thrills and unabashed self-indulgence on the part of the writer.

With more 'traditional' story-focused types, I tend to care less one way or the other about cliches, unless they are unpleasant ones.

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One reason why people enjoy cliches may be due to the fact that there is some degree of safety in them. Sure you could spend money on something completely new but there will be this overhanging fear that you've wasted your money. This fear isn't so prevalent with something that is using a proven formula or cliche.

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I don't really understand why people use cliche as a complaint. In the cases of things like rom-coms, dramas, some say it shows the author is lazy, or simply using own experiences and not his imagination, but really imagination is about making something palatable for reading. If you simply churned out your experiences you will undoubtedly find it indulgent if anything.

Some say it leads to things predictable, but if everything is about your twists you will definitely trip up somewhere. Lord of the Flies does not rely on its twists for example, and you probably know what'll happen in the end, but I still find it a great novel because the way it was executed was impressive. For another example, White Album 2 IC has a premise ripped straight out from an ordinary manga, but it's still great because of the way its characters are handled. Hell, the anime shows exactly what'll happen at the end in the beginning. For stories that rely on their twists, what about an Uchikoshi? The reason he gets to escape is probably due to the fact his sci-fi ways of twisting the stories aren't exactly known, but what about the parts not involving said twists? Ever17 is known to be rather draggy for this. Agatha Christie also comes to mind, and other than And Then There Were None (which also works as a cool thriller) her mysteries are very much about the twists. If someone does find out said twist there the entire work becomes a bore. It's the greatest weakness of stories like that, and then it's not a problem of cliches anymore. It's a problem of balancing information given to the reader.

Some say it's a problem of feeling like, "I think I watched/read/played this before," which I think is a mindset showing that you're not really trying to appreciate a work. Things like the Monomyth Phenomenon show that works have very similar structures, but what's important is how they are set apart. People say making your work have more style over substance isn't exactly the best, but I disagree in that I believe style is a part of substance. You can't really appreciate a work like Lolita if you don't take its style into account.

I personally don't mind reading/watching/playing anything that piques my interest, because I feel judging a work for its "cliches" because then I feel like I'm not truly appreciating what a work is in essence. Buuut, in the end this doesn't apply to everyone, so there's truly only one answer!
 

OPINIONS!!!!

why did i type up such a long response...?

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problem of feeling like, "I think I watched/read/played this before," which I think is a mindset showing that you're not really trying to appreciate a work.

So people should rather fool themselves into loving some hack writers work? What you say is probably true in some cases, but it's probably the writers not really giving a shit more often and goes for the winning formula at all costs, at least these days.

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problem of feeling like, "I think I watched/read/played this before," which I think is a mindset showing that you're not really trying to appreciate a work.

So people should rather fool themselves into loving some hack writers work? What you say is probably true in some cases, but it's probably the writers not really giving a shit more often and goes for the winning formula at all costs, at least these days.

Thus we are kinda stuck with all these countless half-assed moeges while the other genres of vns suffer/lacking because it's the safest business route in the market at the moment. 

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Just because a story has cliches doesn't automatically mean it is bad. Ryuukishi for example is very good at taking a bunch of cliches and turning them on their head (Umineko especially), and deconstruction works in general require the existence of cliches in the first place. So, I honestly like cliches, because they allow for fun stuff like that.

If the work has nothing but cliches, though... well, as long as you know what you're in for, I guess it is fine. Not necessarily my thing, though.

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Well, for moege i'm sure the only really big problem would be changing the nature of heroines and relationships. I'd understand the fury if you buy a "moege" and half way through the heroine youre you're ntr'd by that "hot" male friend that's always in these type of games :P There are a few things that can be changed. First thing would be getting rid of the crappy school scenario. I don't understand how they still enjoy it. I just endure it.

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Well, for moege i'm sure the only really big problem would be changing the nature of heroines and relationships. I'd understand the fury if you buy a "moege" and half way through the heroine youre you're ntr'd by that "hot" male friend that's always in these type of games :P There are a few things that can be changed. First thing would be getting rid of the crappy school scenario. I don't understand how they still enjoy it. I just endure it.

Would be great if we actually get more vns in a college/work office environment setting. Those are very refreshing and it's fun to hear and see characters interact about things not school related like school festivals, visiting the shrine together during New Years, giving out chocolates on White Day/Valentines, student council stuff, and all other cliche plot devices.

Edited by CeruleanGamer
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I'd personally like more fantasy, sci-fi, dystopian and cyberpunk settings. Sure, they can be school students (i'd prefer not though) if so the focus should be outside of school. I saw some otome cyberpunk game that looked interesting, but i'd be creeped out if i were to play something that was about romancing male characters.

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Well, for moege i'm sure the only really big problem would be changing the nature of heroines and relationships. I'd understand the fury if you buy a "moege" and half way through the heroine youre you're ntr'd by that "hot" male friend that's always in these type of games :P There are a few things that can be changed. First thing would be getting rid of the crappy school scenario. I don't understand how they still enjoy it. I just endure it.

Would be great if we actually get more vns in a college/work office environment setting. Those are very refreshing and it's fun to hear and see characters interact about things not school related like school festivals, visiting the shrine together during New Years, giving out chocolates on White Day/Valentines, student council stuff, and all other cliche plot devices.

Eroge h mo game mo kaihatsu zanmai is based in a work office environment, although it's not the best visual novel ever and it's a nukige.

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Well, for moege i'm sure the only really big problem would be changing the nature of heroines and relationships. I'd understand the fury if you buy a "moege" and half way through the heroine youre you're ntr'd by that "hot" male friend that's always in these type of games :P There are a few things that can be changed. First thing would be getting rid of the crappy school scenario. I don't understand how they still enjoy it. I just endure it.

Would be great if we actually get more vns in a college/work office environment setting. Those are very refreshing and it's fun to hear and see characters interact about things not school related like school festivals, visiting the shrine together during New Years, giving out chocolates on White Day/Valentines, student council stuff, and all other cliche plot devices.

Eroge h mo game mo kaihatsu zanmai is based in a work office environment, although it's not the best visual novel ever and it's a nukige.

Played that one and also saw the anime version of it. Maybe I should explore the "University" tag on vndb. Any recommendations? 

Edited by CeruleanGamer
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Well, for moege i'm sure the only really big problem would be changing the nature of heroines and relationships. I'd understand the fury if you buy a "moege" and half way through the heroine youre you're ntr'd by that "hot" male friend that's always in these type of games :P There are a few things that can be changed. First thing would be getting rid of the crappy school scenario. I don't understand how they still enjoy it. I just endure it.

Would be great if we actually get more vns in a college/work office environment setting. Those are very refreshing and it's fun to hear and see characters interact about things not school related like school festivals, visiting the shrine together during New Years, giving out chocolates on White Day/Valentines, student council stuff, and all other cliche plot devices.

Eroge h mo game mo kaihatsu zanmai is based in a work office environment, although it's not the best visual novel ever and it's a nukige.

Played that one and also saw the anime version of it. 

I haven't played the VN completely but the scenes are pretty good. The hentai version was awesome and is one of my favorites except for that last episode...:vinty:

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problem of feeling like, "I think I watched/read/played this before," which I think is a mindset showing that you're not really trying to appreciate a work.

So people should rather fool themselves into loving some hack writers work? What you say is probably true in some cases, but it's probably the writers not really giving a shit more often and goes for the winning formula at all costs, at least these days.

It's about appreciating a work, not loving. It's just my way of thinking that you should try to at least find something to appreciate in something you read, even if you dislike it. And even then it's fine to dislike it. But if you can't even appreciate something because the writer didn't give a shit then I understand. I would probably hate the work too.

And like I said, not everyone thinks the same way. It just all comes down to opinions.

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I dislike the cliche of every single girl you meet in a VN being able to be persuaded into sex/falling in love with you.

I'd love to see a VN where you try to start a route with one girl, and she's just like "You're not my type so no thanks." Try again, "No means no." Try again, you get a restraining order, bad end. :P

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