G-Senjou no Maou: Fan TL vs Sekai TL

[RikiSanic]

The term "unrated" is commonly used to denote a film that is unsuitable for general audiences, and I think that term tends to fit 18+ visual novels.

[Scorp]

By me you should understand, that there is always an opinion, which is different from yours and which you should respect, same as any other opinion. You can disagree, but stop insulting me.

[Darklord Rooke]

  They see unrated, assume uncensored and go and buy.

The majority of people know the difference, actually. Also anybody with experience with the TV medium definitely knows the difference, and everybody in Australia and parts of Europe who previously didn't have an 18+ rating definitely is familiar with the terms.

 If they were not intended to confuse people, they would not even mentioned that "unrated", as in fact no such games were ever rated by ESRB and they all are unrated,

define:unrated - (of a film) not allocated an official classification due to its level of sexually explicit material.

Which comes to the crux of the matter. 'Unrated' is a term usually used to describe a piece of media with explicit sexual content that does not have a rating. I will state categorically that anybody with even a decent amount of exposure to the TV mediums understand this. So why did Sekai put 'unrated' and not 'uncensored'? Because it is a piece of entertainment that does not have a rating due to its explicit sexual content, but it has been censored by the Japanese devs.

Why is this act suddenly an act of deception? It is incredibly clear.

[Mugi]

This is a pretty silly argument  

[Scorp]

 @Rooke stop being dovac's lawyer  Does not suit you. All I have is an OPINION that this was made to trick customers. This is my OPINION and nothing else, you can clearly ignore it. I do not blame anyone in anything. But other companies do this in much better way.

 

[Decay]

If aren't okay with anyone addressing your opinion then don't post it. This is a forum meant for discussions, dismissing counterpoints in such a way is not at all conducive to such discussion.

[Darbury]

I would pay good money for a censored version of this thread that actually discussed the topic at hand: the merits of the fan TL vs the Sekai TL.

But I'm just a silly goat.

[Scorp]

If aren't okay with anyone addressing your opinion then don't post it. This is a forum meant for discussions, dismissing counterpoints in such a way is not at all conducive to such discussion.

I did not told this is not okay to address my opinion, just why address it like I am here in law court and have to go by the dictionary definitions?

 

I would pay good money for a censored version of this thread that actually discussed the topic at hand: the merits of the fan TL vs the Sekai TL.

But I'm just a silly goat.

Fan translation is superior. Big uncut CG scenes, no cutted out h-content, easily changeable font, all voices in place. Only real benefit SP have is widescreen, but I plan to do a patch for that in fan TL one day, this is not a big problem actually, as I checked the resources, background images actually have high-resx. I told it in some other thread.

But I am telling that based only on screenshots, so there could be more benefits for you (as I would not buy such cropped version for sure).

[Decay]

How do you plan on doing widescreen without cropping?

[Scorp]

How do you plan on doing widescreen without cropping?

Scrolling up and down on mouse going near top-bottom of screen or by keys or icons, by default show central crop. Sort of that +-, did not touched it yet. And switch to go in 4:3 as well. Seems would be quite a lot of work, anyway.

[Nosebleed]

I think the biggest advantage when it comes to Fan TLs is flexibility to do what you want.
And I'm not just talking schedule wise, I think the ability to continuously alter your scripts based on direct feedback is something I believe official translations tend to lack.

Of course a company can talk to their costumers, but there's always an element of distance between a company and the consumer, who's role is typically just waiting around for the product to be out.
With Fan TLs though, you tend to actively interact with the staff, and often help them by testing their game and providing corrections, this helps the final product to be improved by the fans for the fans.

However, Fan TLs can easily lack on the quality side because of that same flexibility.
Official translations, if done by competent companies, will always have professionals who's sole work is to translate, and do it as good as possible so they can deliver the story in the best way  they can.
They also have access to official assets and game code which can greatly help in bringing the game to a Western audience.

In this specific case, almost everything has been improved from a technical standpoint, although I have heard the translation/editing suffered, but I can't confirm this myself.
But assuming the translation quality wasn't affected, I think this game in particular can only gain from being updated by SP, save for the fact content was cut from it.

I would pay good money for a censored version of this thread that actually discussed the topic at hand: the merits of the fan TL vs the Sekai TL.

But I'm just a silly goat.

Fan translation is superior. Big uncut CG scenes, no cutted out h-content, easily changeable font. Only benefit official have is widescreen, but I plan to do a patch for that also for fan TL one day, this is not a big problem actually.

>Tfw translation quality doesn't even factor in.
So the translation could be shit so long as the porn is there?

[Scorp]

@Nosebleed, point is that fan translation is exact same translation they use in Sekai release. On screenshots is 100% identical text, word by word. Even if they edited something - it is not on screenshots. What quality difference you speak here, if they are same?

If anyone really want to check and have sekai version - well, you can extract scripts and do a comparison, or send me in PM, will compare and give you analysis ... If this was a retranslation, and not just a rip-off old fan-translated VN - well, I believe I would be much calmer...

For technical point - well, this is KAG, so whole game sources are actually open to edit in their initial form (apart graphic PSD source assets, if they really still had them and this is not just an upscale - I am not good at images, so cannot do a good image comparison to see).

[Darklord Rooke]

I should make a quick point regarding the art assets. I’m currently playing through Baldur’s Gate 2: Enhanced Edition, and I discovered that the cutscenes weren’t reworked with modern art like the 1^st Baldur’s Gate:EE. This was because people complained when Beamdog changed and modernised the cutscenes in the first game. So what was the response when Beamdog left the cutscenes alone in BG2:EE? People complained, of course. And that's a good example of how you can’t please everybody.

Regarding the art assets, it’s nice to have different options for people who prefer different things. But I’m against the idea of having CG’s be ‘scrollable’, having to scroll through art assets breaks immersion when you’re reading and you’re unable to take in a scene in one go, you gotta scroll and interpret it in pieces. There’s a reason companies don’t do that. Definitely not my thing, but other people could be happy with it.

[Scorp]

I should make a quick point regarding the art assets. I’m currently playing through Baldur’s Gate 2: Enhanced Edition, and I discovered that the cutscenes weren’t reworked with modern art like the 1^st Baldur’s Gate:EE. This was because people complained when Beamdog changed and modernised the cutscenes in the first game. So what was the response when Beamdog left the cutscenes alone in BG2:EE? People complained, of course. And that's a good example of how you can’t please everybody.

Regarding the art assets, it’s nice to have different options for people who prefer different things. But I’m against the idea of having CG’s be ‘scrollable’, having to scroll through art assets breaks immersion when you’re reading and you’re unable to take in a scene in one go, you gotta scroll and interpret it in pieces. There’s a reason companies don’t do that. Definitely not my thing, but other people could be happy with it.

You're wrong about "companies don't do it". Check Ever17/Never7 and maybe other Regista games on PSP, which were adapted from 4:3 to 16:9 PSP screen. These use PSP trigger buttons to show top/bottom parts of the background/CG. About disturbed - well, no one requires you to do it, right? If you're okay with cropped screen - you do not touch anything, if you still want to see top of the cutted head - you scroll. Just some companies care about preserving old assets - and some ignore that. That's why FF remakes always include two versions of the soundtrack, for example. Even that you cannot please everyone - you should at least try to do your best, right? I understand, that widescreen was done by AkabeiSoft2, not Sekai, but this does not change the fact, that their original version was superior to this version. 

PS: I never played BG. Last year I tried to play BG EE, did not liked it. Found old 5 discs in the shed, found a CD drive, copied, installed and played in full till the end in 640x480. Was really great this way. Some things better stay, by me.

[Pabloc]

The default expectations of the consumer when bringing over games from another country is that the game arrives in the same condition as it was in Japan, not that it's been magically enhanced.

'Censorship' technically means what Pabloc says, that is true. Unfortunately when publishers of foreign media plaster 'censored' on their website, consumers tend to infer that it has been additionally censored during the process of localisation. So it's a case of one word with two possible meanings, and that might be why Sekai are reluctant to do so. Shooting off a quick question should solve the issue... provided Sekai answers.

My gut reaction is Sekai's aiming for the all-ages crowd, so taking additional time to redesign their website just to say 'we haven't modified our game from the Japanese', which to be fair has always been the default assumption, could be seen as something of low priority.

The "default expectation" here is "no mosaics", because almost every single 18+ VN release on the West does NOT have them. It's often mentioned as one of the advantages of official releases vs fan-translations. Why would anyone suddenly expect something else? Why would anyone even ask about it?

As for informing about mosaics, MG somehow does this in a very clear way, without any controversies, and without using the word "censorship". They do go quite far with this (they dedicated 2 pages in the Ef artbook for the explanation about their localization and mosaics), but that's how it should be. They know that everyone expects and uncensored release, so they do whatever they can to inform the customers when something is different than "default expectations". For some mysterious reason, there was no outrage when they released those two VNs with mosaics.
How about Sekai? They slapped a term "unrated" on it. Why? It says exactly nothing - like I said, all 18+ VNs are "unrated" on the West, nobody cares about it. Heck, nobody even uses this term in the context of VNs. Unlike the term "uncensored"... But yeah, those terms sound so incredibly different there's no way anyone would make any mistakes. It's certainly a better idea to use a perfectly meaningless "unrated" instead of a perfectly clear "with mosaic". Great job.
If this really wasn't an intentional choice meant to deceive less cautious customers, they are retarded.

Going back to the G-Sen case - transparency and communication seems to be a bit of an issue here again. They were treating the "cropping" topic as a taboo, and as far as I know, they didn't even say whether they are planning to release the 18+ edition on Denpasoft or not. Or maybe I'm just missing their announcements? Correct me if I'm wrong.

As for updating art - there are plenty of good solutions:
1) Redrawing and expanding CG into a true, non-cropped HD. That's obviously the best solution. Definitely the most expensive one, but even though it might seem too good to be realistic, it's not unheard of - https://vndb.org/r3723 to mention just one example (and that's a total upgrade form 16-color graphics).
2) Scrolling - easier, cheaper, but less comfortable. Still, it preserves the original artwork in widescreen just fine, and you don't have to use the scrolling feature at all - you just get cropped version then.
3) Choice - you pick either cropped CGs or original ones with black borders - that's a no-brainer. Kizuato/Shizuku remake did this as well - they included the original 16-color editions.

Generally, the best idea is to let people choose. It's simple - you have old artwork, old cutscenes, everything - just slap those together with remastered stuff and let people pick whatever they want. A very easy way to make (almost) everyone happy with little to no additional costs (unless there are some licensing issues, but this shouldn't be the case here). It's actually a rather common practice, now that I think about it...

Edited November 20, 2015 by Pabloc

[Darklord Rooke]

 The "default expectation" here is "no mosaics", because almost every single 18+ VN release on the West does NOT have them. It's often mentioned as one of the advantages of official releases vs fan-translations. Why would anyone suddenly expect something else? Why would anyone even ask about it?

Actually no it isn’t, the precedent for an assumed unchanged release is well established and has been for a long time. In comparison, the precedent for an assumed no mosaic release is really only been established and adhered to by MangaGamer, so the precedent is dubious at best. Additionally this expectation crosses mediums quite spectacularly, book publishers notify consumers on what has changed during a localisation, gaming companies notify consumers on what has changed during a localisation, movie studios similarly, this is the way things are done. The eroge fanbase has been spoilt by Mangagamer who pander quite spectacularly to them, but in no way is this the norm and in no way does this effect default consumer expectations in the industry. And why would it? The idea that you give information on every little thing is quite ridiculous to a company, they'd be at it all day, so the idea that a localisation is the same unless stated otherwise is useful to cut down on time. The idea that the rules have suddenly changed and that Sekai is culpable of deviousness is quite ridiculous - they are merely behaving like most other companies in the world. I would say the push for mosaics comes from a desire within certain aspects of the eroge fanbase to have unmosaiced VNs, and this desire drives them to seek out information, but I wouldn't say this desire establishes a precedent as to what information is expected to be presented every time to the entirety of the fanbase. And anyway if a piece of work has mosaics, then the company in question faces a backlash from this part of the eroge fanbase no matter what they do, so I would suggest this 'unrated' kerfuffle is a bit of a scapegoat, allowing a portion of the fanbase to vent their anger over pixellated penises. More on 'unrated' below.

Your assertion that ‘everybody expects an uncensored release’ is a spectacularly dubious statement backed up by no evidence whatsoever. And even if they did expect an 'uncensored' release, what sort of 'uncensored' are we talking about? Because as I said, the term 'censored' usually applies to localisation companies adding additional censorship, not localisation companies keeping censorship which is already in place. If that were the case, very FEW works would ever be uncensored, because mosaicing out penises is only one of the many forms of censorship the original devs may have included during the making of the game. The writers, for example, may have strayed away or suppressed topics, dialogues, and description they felt would be uncomfortable for the section of the Japanese audience they were targeting, and if devs altering the images is a form of censorship, then devs modifying the text would also count. So now what are the options, get the devs to rewrite certain sections of the story to what it would have been had they been granted complete free reign? An absurd idea. And this is why the word 'censored' when used in conjunction with 'localisation' is often meant 'additional censorship applied by the localisation company.'

How about Sekai? They slapped a term "unrated" on it. Why? It says exactly nothing - like I said, all 18+ VNs are "unrated" on the West, nobody cares about it. Heck, nobody even uses this term in the context of VNs. Unlike the term "uncensored"... But yeah, those terms sound so incredibly different there's no way anyone would make any mistakes. It's certainly a better idea to use a perfectly meaningless "unrated" instead of a perfectly clear "with mosaic". Great job.
If this really wasn't an intentional choice meant to deceive less cautious customers, they are retarded.

I am going to be quite frank and say that during my lengthy discussions on ratings over the past decade or so, on anime forums and the like, the eroge fanbase is the only fanbase which seems to express confusion over the term 'unrated.' Saying the terms 'unrated' and 'uncensored' are confusing is like saying the words 'undone' and 'underdone' are confusing, they CAN be... if you don't know the language. And if Sekai are promoting their site to English speakers, then assuming their audience understands English is not an unreasonable assumption to make. It is NOT Sekai's job to hold your hand and guide you to enlightenment, they supply the information on the site, it's not hidden in an unused basement behind a sign which says 'beware: pitbulls ahead' so take some initiative and inform yourself before you make your purchase.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Rooke

[Darbury]

It's not hidden in an unused basement behind a sign which says 'beware: pitbulls ahead' so take some initiative and inform yourself before you make your purchase.

Of course not. It's on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying “Beware of The Leopard." You, of all people, should know that.

[Chuee]

The denpasoft page has mosaics as a tag. What's this argument even about? 

[Zenophilious]

Please stay on topic, I'm trying to cook dinner  >.<

[monkeysrumble]

Wow, that semantics thing really blew up.

One of the big unknown factors I had was the quality of the translation, though I myself don't know Japanese and probably wouldn't notice a difference I would still ideally prefer the best translation so I can read the closest thing to the original story. It seems like the translation is pretty much the same with a few minor differences that I probably wouldn't even notice (except spelling errors but that's just a problem all the time). Cropping really doesn't bother me that much but it is poorly done in some cases. Usually when I have an option to play a game with or without H-scenes I always go for the version with h-scenes because it's the original  I'm a horny bastard.

So far my list of pros and cons are

Sekai TL

+Better Aspect ratio

+Better backgrounds

+Choice to have voiced or unvoiced (some people view this as a con but it's really nice to have the option in my opinion)

-Cropped CG's

- No Hentai

 

Fan TL

+ Hentai

+ Uncropped CG's (it's nice to have the full artwork I must admit)

-Shit resolution

Honestly it seems like both versions of the game are not by any means bad, it's pretty much like picking between the adult and all-ages version of a VN except that all-ages has a better resolution.

[Funnerific]

 

+Choice to have voiced or unvoiced (some people view this as a con but it's really nice to have the option in my opinion)

You do realize you can just turn off the voices in the options menu in any visual novel, right? Many even offer that option separately for different characters.

[monkeysrumble]

 

+Choice to have voiced or unvoiced (some people view this as a con but it's really nice to have the option in my opinion)

You do realize you can just turn off the voices in the options menu in any visual novel, right? Many even offer that option separately for different characters.

You could but why spend an extra 20 bucks when you're not going to use the voices? It's just nice to have the option not to buy it if you don't think you're going to use it.

[Dergonu]

Wow, that semantics thing really blew up.

One of the big unknown factors I had was the quality of the translation, though I myself don't know Japanese and probably wouldn't notice a difference I would still ideally prefer the best translation so I can read the closest thing to the original story. It seems like the translation is pretty much the same with a few minor differences that I probably wouldn't even notice (except spelling errors but that's just a problem all the time). Cropping really doesn't bother me that much but it is poorly done in some cases. Usually when I have an option to play a game with or without H-scenes I always go for the version with h-scenes because it's the original  I'm a horny bastard.

So far my list of pros and cons are

Sekai TL

+Better Aspect ratio

+Better backgrounds

+Choice to have voiced or unvoiced (some people view this as a con but it's really nice to have the option in my opinion)

-Cropped CG's

- No Hentai

 

Fan TL

+ Hentai

+ Uncropped CG's (it's nice to have the full artwork I must admit)

-Shit resolution

Honestly it seems like both versions of the game are not by any means bad, it's pretty much like picking between the adult and all-ages version of a VN except that all-ages has a better resolution.

Amen.

This thread got way out of hand, but supplied me with something entertaining to read in a boring history class. 

[Mr Poltroon]

Wow, that semantics thing really blew up.

One of the big unknown factors I had was the quality of the translation, though I myself don't know Japanese and probably wouldn't notice a difference I would still ideally prefer the best translation so I can read the closest thing to the original story. It seems like the translation is pretty much the same with a few minor differences that I probably wouldn't even notice (except spelling errors but that's just a problem all the time). Cropping really doesn't bother me that much but it is poorly done in some cases. Usually when I have an option to play a game with or without H-scenes I always go for the version with h-scenes because it's the original  I'm a horny bastard.

So far my list of pros and cons are

Sekai TL

+Better Aspect ratio

+Better backgrounds

+Choice to have voiced or unvoiced (some people view this as a con but it's really nice to have the option in my opinion)

-Cropped CG's

- No Hentai

 

Fan TL

+ Hentai

+ Uncropped CG's (it's nice to have the full artwork I must admit)

-Shit resolution

Honestly it seems like both versions of the game are not by any means bad, it's pretty much like picking between the adult and all-ages version of a VN except that all-ages has a better resolution.

Amen.

This thread got way out of hand, but supplied me with something entertaining to read in a boring history class. 

This is the off-topic topic topic, right? Then allow me to take a minute to rant about how there is no such thing as boring history.
 

Alternatively I could provide my opinion, that being I do not care about explicit H-Scenes, nor the CG loss consequent from the widescreening of CG's.
I should clarify I mean explicit as the antonym of implicit. I don't need the H-Scene to be pictured, but the alternative would have to be implicit.

[Pabloc]

the precedent for an assumed no mosaic release is really only been established and adhered to by MangaGamer

And JAST USA, Peach Princess, G-Collections, Himeya Soft, Kitty Media, and every single H-anime Western publisher ever. Can you name ONE company (other than SP) that releases mosaiced H on the West (save for the two titles form MG that I mentioned earlier)? Just one - maybe I'm missing something?

 The idea that the rules have suddenly changed and that Sekai is culpable of deviousness is quite ridiculous - they are merely behaving like most other companies in the world.

Except every single Western publisher that has anything to do with releasing visual novels or Hentai stuff in general.

 And anyway if a piece of work has mosaics, then the company in question faces a backlash from this part of the eroge fanbase no matter what they do

Oh yeah, I remember that enormous backlash that MG faced when they released mosaiced Suika and Ef... No, wait - that kinda never happened. What exactly did you have in mind? Do you have some examples? Even just one? Maybe I'm missing something?

 And this is why the word 'censored' when used in conjunction with 'localisation' is often meant 'additional censorship applied by the localisation company.'

Yeah, because in case of official Western releases, there's no other censorship to speak of - mosaics simply don't exist here (with some extremely rare exceptions).

Now, don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to accuse you of spouting spectacularly dubious statements backed up by no evidence whatsoever. I'm just wondering if I'm missing something. You are arguing with such conviction, that I'm starting to think that I somehow missed a bunch of official, mosaiced releases that are currently flooding the Western market. Honestly, I'm just curious where are your arguments coming from.

The denpasoft page has mosaics as a tag. What's this argument even about? 

Indeed, I didn't see it the last time I checked... and I'm not quite sure if it was there back then (I think I would have noticed it, or somebody would have mentioned it instead of quoting the FAQ, but maybe I'm wrong). Anyway, like this it's perfectly fine.

 

To stay on topic (somewhat), I'll add that, unlike many people, I really like the idea of cheaper voiceless version. It gives customers more options, and that's always good. Considering the costs of voice licensing, it really makes sense to split releases like this, instead of bloating the price of the entire VN. I don't get why so many people were complaining about it - no matter how I look at it, two options are much better than just one release.