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The Market of VNs Around the World - Discussion

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This isn't unique to the west though, the japanese market is going the same way, with more and more companies and creators opting for all-age. A lot of those more unique titles probably wouldn't get made today anyway as people demand a huge amount of content. I think someone (it might have been Moogy?) mentioned that Romeo had said that it used to be enough to simply add some sex scenes but now people demand school settings, and other stuff. 

I think it's possible that the future (japanese) market will consist of companies that release mostly moege and nukige (and titles with a bit more plot that follow a simliar "formula") which will still be eroge, a few companies releasing "plot-focused" titles, mostly without ero, possibly mainly on console, and a few bigger companies like Nitro (unless they decide to just focus on Sonico lol) and Alicesoft whose titles wouldn't really work as all age.

I don't really feel like lamenting over the death of eroge when a huge amount of the writers who wrote those titles in the first place seems to have just up and left the industry, (at least the eroge part of it), with no one new to step into their shoes.

I'm aware of it, sadly. But the reasons are a bit different. The eroge market in Japan is not blooming, it's dying. Therefore producers take less risk, companies crash and burn, etc... And you need to respond to the very specific needs of some fans that go unbelievably balistic if you don't - mandatory voices, mandatory school setting, date-able heroines (that are faithful and virgin), large amount of text, and so many unsaid conventions... The same thing is happened to anime.
There's a reason why two of the best VNs released in those last few years are SubaHibi and SakuUta - for the simple reason that Sca-ji is not only a fascinating writer, but also his own boss running his own company.

It's not a really happy state indeed. It's the disappearance of a subculture and everything it means. The thing is, I don't see the current english market picking up where the japanese one left, and I don't even see it making that legacy available over here.

Doesn't mean we won't get good VNs. There's plenty of stuff out there still, I'm not pessimistic. As I said, that's a pretty opinionated point of view, I don't expect everyone (far from it) to agree with it. There's a reason why I learned japanese, I don't think so many people are interested in what I think is interesting in eroge.

you cant talk about how much of a deal you got, everyone in steam is legally bind to a contract. THQ vs Sega case found 0 answers, just some reporters guessing at 30%, no real link or anything. the math is wrong, something so basic can be done to look at the real answer:

20,755 sold pre-order game x $45 of price = $933,975

my homework

1447163486659_zpsnqxft6aa.jpg

geeetttttttttttttt dunk on

wt7IMOA.jpg

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People are free to negotiate with Steam (I suppose) as to what cut they're willing to give, but smaller companies will have less power to do so and the default cut seems to be 30%. I think Firecat got 70% by misreading a quote from Phil Fish when he was encouraging people to buy through Humble Bundle - "we get 95% of revenues as opposed to steam/gog's 70%".

Edited by Rooke

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People are free to negotiate with Steam (I suppose) as to what cut they're willing to give, but smaller companies will have less power to do so and the default cut seems to be 30%. I think Firecat got 70% by misreading a quote from Phil Fish when he was encouraging people to buy through Humble Bundle - "we get 95% of revenues as opposed to steam/gog's 70%".

no its random, this is what happen when i try to do something beyond my normal self posting. people will never be able to see the real numbers and people are too supported of lies to see the real answers. the whole topic itself will never end because there is no answer to the question, people will believe in the lies not the truth so go ahead jump into the web of lies.

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People are free to negotiate with Steam (I suppose) as to what cut they're willing to give, but smaller companies will have less power to do so and the default cut seems to be 30%. I think Firecat got 70% by misreading a quote from Phil Fish when he was encouraging people to buy through Humble Bundle - "we get 95% of revenues as opposed to steam/gog's 70%".

no its random, this is what happen when i try to do something beyond my normal self posting. people will never be able to see the real numbers and people are too supported of lies to see the real answers. the whole topic itself will never end because there is no answer to the question, people will believe in the lies not the truth so go ahead jump into the web of lies.

Here's the definition of "random":

ran·dom
ˈrandəm/
adjective
adjective: random
  1. 1.
    made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.
    "a random sample of 100 households"
    antonyms:systematic
    • STATISTICS
      governed by or involving equal chances for each item.

 I assure you Valve's method for determining its cut of Steam sales is not "random", as in determined by a random number generator.

Edited by sanahtlig

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People are free to negotiate with Steam (I suppose) as to what cut they're willing to give, but smaller companies will have less power to do so and the default cut seems to be 30%. I think Firecat got 70% by misreading a quote from Phil Fish when he was encouraging people to buy through Humble Bundle - "we get 95% of revenues as opposed to steam/gog's 70%".

no its random, this is what happen when i try to do something beyond my normal self posting. people will never be able to see the real numbers and people are too supported of lies to see the real answers. the whole topic itself will never end because there is no answer to the question, people will believe in the lies not the truth so go ahead jump into the web of lies.

Here's the definition of "random":

ran·dom
ˈrandəm/
adjective
adjective: random
  1. 1.
    made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.
    "a random sample of 100 households"
    antonyms:systematic
    • STATISTICS
      governed by or involving equal chances for each item.

 I assure you Valve's method for determining its cut of Steam sales is not "random", as in determined by a random number generator.

again you have no proof, you dont even have a steam developer account (as far as we know from you). these crazy rumors from just random reports posting only 7 sentence or less are nothing. i keep telling everyone, you wont ever find someone willing to give up their rights to sell on steam just to reveal what the real numbers are, thats not ever going to happen. one thing we do know is that steam is making a lot of money, people are buying games from steam and other sites, no one cares about developers, no one cares about anything in gaming.

every gamer wants something from the golden game of retro gaming, ya you guys dont understand since you are not experts in human minds or anything like that but its the truth.

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 again you have no proof, you dont even have a steam developer account (as far as we know from you). these crazy rumors from just random reports posting only 7 sentence or less are nothing. i keep telling everyone, you wont ever find someone willing to give up their rights to sell on steam just to reveal what the real numbers are, thats not ever going to happen. one thing we do know is that steam is making a lot of money, people are buying games from steam and other sites, no one cares about developers, no one cares about anything in gaming.

every gamer wants something from the golden game of retro gaming, ya you guys dont understand since you are not experts in human minds or anything like that but its the truth.

Methods for arriving at "truth" include empirical observation, deduction, and inference.  These are the basis of scientific and philosophical investigation.

A limited number of empirical observations suggest Valve takes a 30% cut.  We can infer from the lack of disagreement that this 30% rate is prevalent, if not universal.  That Valve would select a rate "randomly" for each developer using a method akin to a random number generator is simply absurd.  We don't need empirical confirmation to deduce that this is inconsistent with good business practices, and therefore infer that it is incorrect.

Furthermore, the Steam marketplace was established specifically to allow developers to self-publish and sell directly to consumers, addressing longstanding developer complaints about publishers and retailers taking the lion's share of profits.  Steam is well-liked and supported by developers, which is part of the reason for its success.  Your criticism of the platform frankly seems unfounded.  I've never heard a developer complain that Steam took an unfair share of their profits.  They do however complain about publishers like EA and resellers like GameStop.

Edited by sanahtlig

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Methods for arriving at truth include empirical observation, deduction, and inference.  These are the basis of scientific and philosophical investigation.

Since this topic is dead anyway, I can digress. Philosophers will argue with you about the validity of empirism, the usefulness of deduction, the meaning of inference and whether philosophy even deals with questions of Truth :P

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Firecat reminds me of that guy from the Gender Bender DNA Twister Extreme team who posted on /jp/. He insisted that Steam was an elaborate scheme to scam indies out of all of their game revenue, and that nobody ever saw any money from steam sales. All of the reports of people profiting from Steam were fabricated to keep the scam going. His source? He didn't get paid by the project leader. 

Hmm, yes, surely that's what was going on.

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The problem of the cut of ero content is not the porn itself. Half the point of eroges is that because they are niche 18+ products, you can do whatever the shit you want in it as long as you throw in some porn. Platforms like Steam won't allow that. You won't see SubaHibi, Saya no Uta or SayoOshi going to Steam, and it's not a question of porn (i.e. sex as masturbatory material).

Cut that off and eroge loses a lot of what makes it a very particular and interesting sub-culture. And all you end up with is a medium like any other. That's a pretty opinionated point of view, but if Key VNs and Grisaias and Katawa Shoujos is all that awaits the future of the english eroge (or visual novel, whatever, it's the same thing) market, well frankly it's a bit boring. And throwing a Muv-Luv or even other really good VNs in the lot isn't gonna change my point of view.

This isn't unique to the west though, the japanese market is going the same way, with more and more companies and creators opting for all-age. A lot of those more unique titles probably wouldn't get made today anyway as people demand a huge amount of content. I think someone (it might have been Moogy?) mentioned that Romeo had said that it used to be enough to simply add some sex scenes but now people demand school settings, and other stuff. 

I think it's possible that the future (japanese) market will consist of companies that release mostly moege and nukige (and titles with a bit more plot that follow a simliar "formula") which will still be eroge, a few companies releasing "plot-focused" titles, mostly without ero, possibly mainly on console, and a few bigger companies like Nitro (unless they decide to just focus on Sonico lol) and Alicesoft whose titles wouldn't really work as all age.

I don't really feel like lamenting over the death of eroge when a huge amount of the writers who wrote those titles in the first place seems to have just up and left the industry, (at least the eroge part of it), with no one new to step into their shoes.

I'm definitely curious about the all age comment you mentioned and how a lot of companies are opting in that direction. It's strange because every month in 2015 was littered with moege advertisements in Akihabara, so much so that even games like Hitori Sensou (2014) was plastered with sexual imagery in order to sell it. The predecessor to Subahibi was just released on the 23rd of October (a few weeks ago), and even that was advertised in Akiba with porn and tropes (panty shots, accentuated breasts).

It's an interesting market in Japan, because nukige (by law I assume) are never advertised, yet Sofmap and Getchu are littered with them on release day. May-Be Soft released Change! ~Ano Ko ni Natte Kunkun Peropero~ last year in July/August and even that is still sold used at 6,800 yen. In fact, it was on Getchu's top 10 list for a few months in a row if I am not mistaken. I mean, when that game costs more than Grisaia used, I feel it says a lot about the market.

This isn't unique to the west though, the japanese market is going the same way, with more and more companies and creators opting for all-age. A lot of those more unique titles probably wouldn't get made today anyway as people demand a huge amount of content. I think someone (it might have been Moogy?) mentioned that Romeo had said that it used to be enough to simply add some sex scenes but now people demand school settings, and other stuff. 

I think it's possible that the future (japanese) market will consist of companies that release mostly moege and nukige (and titles with a bit more plot that follow a simliar "formula") which will still be eroge, a few companies releasing "plot-focused" titles, mostly without ero, possibly mainly on console, and a few bigger companies like Nitro (unless they decide to just focus on Sonico lol) and Alicesoft whose titles wouldn't really work as all age.

I don't really feel like lamenting over the death of eroge when a huge amount of the writers who wrote those titles in the first place seems to have just up and left the industry, (at least the eroge part of it), with no one new to step into their shoes.

I'm aware of it, sadly. But the reasons are a bit different. The eroge market in Japan is not blooming, it's dying. Therefore producers take less risk, companies crash and burn, etc... And you need to respond to the very specific needs of some fans that go unbelievably balistic if you don't - mandatory voices, mandatory school setting, date-able heroines (that are faithful and virgin), large amount of text, and so many unsaid conventions... The same thing is happened to anime.
There's a reason why two of the best VNs released in those last few years are SubaHibi and SakuUta - for the simple reason that Sca-ji is not only a fascinating writer, but also his own boss running his own company.

It's not a really happy state indeed. It's the disappearance of a subculture and everything it means. The thing is, I don't see the current english market picking up where the japanese one left, and I don't even see it making that legacy available over here.

Doesn't mean we won't get good VNs. There's plenty of stuff out there still, I'm not pessimistic. As I said, that's a pretty opinionated point of view, I don't expect everyone (far from it) to agree with it. There's a reason why I learned japanese, I don't think so many people are interested in what I think is interesting in eroge.

you cant talk about how much of a deal you got, everyone in steam is legally bind to a contract. THQ vs Sega case found 0 answers, just some reporters guessing at 30%, no real link or anything. the math is wrong, something so basic can be done to look at the real answer:

20,755 sold pre-order game x $45 of price = $933,975

my homework

1447163486659_zpsnqxft6aa.jpg

geeetttttttttttttt dunk on

wt7IMOA.jpg

I agree with the company aspect here. I feel companies tie down successful writers, and much like the idol industry and voice acting business in Japan, the contracted company you work for calls all the shots, leaving you as a writer with very little free rein.

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 again you have no proof, you dont even have a steam developer account (as far as we know from you). these crazy rumors from just random reports posting only 7 sentence or less are nothing. i keep telling everyone, you wont ever find someone willing to give up their rights to sell on steam just to reveal what the real numbers are, thats not ever going to happen. one thing we do know is that steam is making a lot of money, people are buying games from steam and other sites, no one cares about developers, no one cares about anything in gaming.

every gamer wants something from the golden game of retro gaming, ya you guys dont understand since you are not experts in human minds or anything like that but its the truth.

Methods for arriving at "truth" include empirical observation, deduction, and inference.  These are the basis of scientific and philosophical investigation.

A limited number of empirical observations suggest Valve takes a 30% cut.  We can infer from the lack of disagreement that this 30% rate is prevalent, if not universal.  That Valve would select a rate "randomly" for each developer using a method akin to a random number generator is simply absurd.  We don't need empirical confirmation to deduce that this is inconsistent with good business practices, and therefore infer that it is incorrect.

Furthermore, the Steam marketplace was established specifically to allow developers to self-publish and sell directly to consumers, addressing longstanding developer complaints about publishers and retailers taking the lion's share of profits.  Steam is well-liked and supported by developers, which is part of the reason for its success.  Your criticism of the platform frankly seems unfounded.  I've never heard a developer complain that Steam took an unfair share of their profits.  They do however complain about publishers like EA and resellers like GameStop.

there you go makin another rumor, you have no links, no picture, no interview, nothing (funny thing is that your post is 7 sentence). you also mistaken that you thought i was talking about developers in steam, i never did so you trying to make another rumor within a rumor. seriously someone who has been in the internet since 2002 should really seen how much of a rumor you yourself have posted (or that could be a lie, not really my problem). trolls like you is what makes the internet bad, just stop making crazy storys about how you had some crazy experience all because you had learn these things. well big news your mind is wrong, its filled with false information that your brain wants to fill, its never real until someone shows physical proof.

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Since the mod make the topic trail off I put it back on the rail :makina:

 

To be honest I was lost pretty early in this thread. Mainly because I don't know about english market nor fapanese market.

But, since the topic is "around the world", I'll talk about french market ^^.

The thing is, right now, the vn community in France is growing, and so the number of tl project is increasing.

The french are really interested in Japan, though it's mainly because of the manga, there is really a guenuinely interest for Japan as a whole. And even if it's a niche market people will run into VN if they go to Akiba.

French people may be less biased toward 18+ content, because of the manga market deeply implanted in France (so there is a certain number of H-manga here in plain sight)

I often talk about VN around me, even with non-otaku friend, but I never get the "ewww" reaction. I even made few of them trying without asking them to do so.

Well maybe it's me being donkan, or having a special trait or, and it's likely that, they're not bothered by the subject itself.

The point is it's possible to get a "real" VN market in France without relying on Steam.

Actually, right now, I'm mounting a project which could change the VN market in France. :holo:

 

But the main problem is that it's over-shadowed by english. Since most people under 30 here know english, why bother to tl in french?

And of course the localization thing ^^"

In conclusion I think that if we do "our job" right, France can have a good VN market. :mare:

(oddly enough I feel like what I just wrote make no sense..... :vinty: )

 

And I join Rose, OELVN will become something important in the futur. ;) 

 

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there you go makin another rumor, you have no links, no picture, no interview, nothing (funny thing is that your post is 7 sentence). you also mistaken that you thought i was talking about developers in steam, i never did so you trying to make another rumor within a rumor. seriously someone who has been in the internet since 2002 should really seen how much of a rumor you yourself have posted (or that could be a lie, not really my problem). trolls like you is what makes the internet bad, just stop making crazy storys about how you had some crazy experience all because you had learn these things. well big news your mind is wrong, its filled with false information that your brain wants to fill, its never real until someone shows physical proof.

There are thousands of way to link to someone an explanation about cognitive bias (like, you know, fucking wikipedia) and linking an illegal stream of a random episode of a random comedy show it probably the worst you could pick. If you want to put it back find something else, and something legal.

@cognitive bias: you know how we deal with them? By using the scientific method. If you want to challenge a reasonable claim based on the few empirical statements we have, YOU need to bring solid evidence of the contrary, not just the blatantly obvious fact that "we can't be sure of it". That's a logical fallacy and it's called argument from ignorance.

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 It's an interesting market in Japan, because nukige (by law I assume) are never advertised, yet Sofmap and Getchu are littered with them on release day. May-Be Soft released Change! ~Ano Ko ni Natte Kunkun Peropero~ last year in July/August and even that is still sold used at 6,800 yen. In fact, it was on Getchu's top 10 list for a few months in a row if I am not mistaken. I mean, when that game costs more than Grisaia used, I feel it says a lot about the market.

 It doesn't say much really.  Used prices are all about supply: whether the company keeps printing the game (and releasing low price editions) which drives used prices down.  It's pretty typical for big-budget titles like Mass Effect to get deep discounts after they've been out for a while, while niche titles like NISA's maintain their prices because they often have limited print runs (or at least, they used to).

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linking an illegal stream of a random episode of a random comedy show it probably the worst you could pick. If you want to put it back find something else, and something legal.

its consider an educational tv show, links to what he says can be easily found in google or on the tv (the text that pops up) and there are experts discussing about the topic. the show pretty much covers for itself very well, the only bad news is that few people know that show (its a good show QQ ).

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