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How to handle drama in VNs


solidbatman

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So this is something Ren and myself were discussing in regards to his Hoshizora and my Little Busters review. One of my biggest pet peeves in a VN is drama that just happens with no warning or hints, and completely changes the way the character in question acts. The best examples I can think of are Komari in Little Busters and Kotomi in Clannad. In both, and I'll keep this as spoiler free as possible, an event takes place, seemingly minor and inconsequential that suddenly changes the character into someone completely different. We get no hints of the sudden personality change, or no warning. It feels like it just happens out of no where. Think of a tumblr girl being triggered by the smallest thing, and that is what it sometimes looks like seeing these characters. Compare that to say, Kurugaya's route, or even Haruka in Little Busters. The drama in those routes does get hinted at, and does not feel totally out of left field. 

 

Is this a case of poor writing, or me not reading well enough to notice the most subtle of detail? Or is it something some of you can ignore and get past out of love for the character, story, or do you just like being caught off guard in that manner?

 

How do you feel about a VN with Sudden Onset Drama Syndrome, or SODS? 

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I don't think I've ever read a VN with this syndrome. I normally see is a slightly strange behaviour shown from the heroine from the get-go, a minor nuisance, that is later revealed to be related to some past trauma, which the MC helps overcome. Think Kotomi from Clannad. This is generally well-handled because recollection is a powerful tool, always catches the player off-guard, even if he or she had already predicted there was something else going on or even if the revelation comes out of the blue.

 

I suppose what you are describing is a complete lack of recollection, a lack of elements to which you can look back and say "oh" even when these elements weren't read as "hints" back then. If there are no recurring elements anywhere, there's no ground upon which the game can build drama. So there's that. It needs to mirror itself to show what changed and, from the reviews you guys wrote, there doesn't seem to be any of that in either LB! or Hoshimemo.

It can work well, if the subtle hints appear. Having an entire personality be the hint, does not do the trick for me. I can remember maybe one instance in Komari's route where a little foreshadowing happened. At least in Kotomi's we have a little more to work with. 

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I didn't find Kotomi's drama unreasonnable. Yes it's sudden but it's plausible. The memories of a traumatic even can trigger such shifts in ones attitude, or so I beleive and I can eventually understand.

I actually think drama like Haruka's is the worse kind of think ever. The character went through so much, had so many problems that are so specific to her own situation that it makes the character impossible to relate to. I couldn't feel any empathy, I couldn't feel sorry because her situation just felt silly and way over the top. She's one of the perfect examples of Key's over dramatisation. Many big problems equals many drama, to the point where it get a little ridiculous.

Plausibility and relatability are both very important factors in drama for me.

Hell, has fuwa drama ever been hinted ?

 

Edited by Guest
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I didn't find Kotomi's drama unreasonnable. Yes it's sudden but it's plausible. The memories of a traumatic even can trigger such shifts in ones attitude, or so I beleive and I can eventually understand.

I actually think drama like Haruka's is the worse kind of think ever. The character went through so much, had so many problems that are so specific to her own situation that it makes the character impossible to relate to. I couldn't feel any empathy, I couldn't feel sorry because her situation just felt silly and way over the top. She's one of the perfect examples of Key's over dramatisation. Many big problems equals many drama, to the point where it get a little ridiculous.

Plausibility and relatability are both very important factors in drama for me.

Hell, has fuwa drama ever been hinted ?

 

Most Key routes are completely unrelatable, so I don't buy into that argument too much. But you are right. Haruka's route was way way over dramatic. At least there was some basis and hints for it, despite it being so over the top. 

I guess one man's trash is another man's treasure in this case. Which is what I was curious about, since I hate the sudden onset drama. 

 

As for Fuwa drama, legends state that when Steve, Ren, Maef, Bats and Tay are all online at the same time, the server host calls the fire department, knowing full well that shit is about to go down in a Fuwa Royal Rumble. 

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There's a (missable, qq) event in LB's common route that creepily foreshadows Komari's. It really shouldn't have been. That said: I think sometimes people just miss it, or misunderstand it (ren vs. borked ear comes to mind). That said, this obviously happens at times and is bad... for some people. I'm not sure if I care, because I generally just go with and accept the plot, holes or no...

Edited by Zakamutt
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Not speaking to the examples provided, but is SODS always indicative of bad writing?  You don't get the thrill of recollection that Palas mentioned and you don't get to make all the little connections in your head, but sometimes drama needs to be spontaneous and hit you like a truck - either due to the nature of the event or for artistic impact. Dramatic events aren't always explicitly or subtly telegraphed in real life after all and I could conceive of some examples where it would be more organic for there not to be any foreshadowing in the story at all.

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I base my arguments on most of the Clannad routes (Fuuko, Tomoyo and the tea girl excluded). I feel these ones were very easy to relate to.

Other Key routes, I agree with you. I don't think Key's drama is that good in any of their other games anyway ^^ .

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Not speaking to the examples provided, but is SODS always indicative of bad writing?  You don't get the thrill of recollection that Palas mentioned and you don't get to make all the little connections in your head, but sometimes drama needs to be spontaneous and hit you like a truck - either due to the nature of the event or for artistic impact. Dramatic events aren't always explicitly or subtly telegraphed in real life after all and I could conceive of some examples where it would be more organic for there not to be any foreshadowing in the story at all.

No, it isn't always bad writing. I was careful to not say it was. 

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Dramatic events aren't always explicitly or subtly telegraphed in real life after all and I could conceive of some examples where it would be more organic for there not to be any foreshadowing in the story at all.

Kira☆Kira is a great example for this.

I really need to read these Overdrive VNs. People seem to really enjoy them. 

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I think I have a thicker skin against "forced" drama than most people. Mostly because some drama (even awkwardly inserted drama) is better than no drama. At the same time I can definitely get why you get annoyed when it is feels it is coming right out of nowhere. Foreshadowing shouldn't be that hard

Dramatic events aren't always explicitly or subtly telegraphed in real life after all and I could conceive of some examples where it would be more organic for there not to be any foreshadowing in the story at all.

Kira☆Kira is a great example for this.

Me from six years ago certainly didn't agree with you. I hated "that" part then. Then again I also didn't know there existed a true ending so I thought that was it.

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Foreshadowing isn't a requirement to create a powerful drama scenario. Some of them can be subtle to the point that you don't even notice them. Examples: Rain (Hollywood does this shit a lot), appearances of animals out of nowhere (like black cats/owls), long scenes of protagonists and his lover being lovey-dovey with each other (when that happens, I always expect something to go south sooner or later), introduction of new characters, etc. 

I've seen vns just throw a drama scene like bird poop landing on your face but they present the resolution and even the conflict itself with great detail and attention and no inconsistencies. In my opinion, if a drama is not too obvious to solve and when emotion clearly overpowers logic, it's tolerable no matter how ridiculously stupid it was to even get there. For example, if the drama keeps dragging on but cannot be solved by anyone like friends/family other the protagonist/heroine, then it can make for some good drama. Dramas become "stupid and pointless" when they are easy to solve in the first place. 

 

Edited by CeruleanGamer
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How do you feel about a VN with Sudden Onset Drama Syndrome, or SODS? 

One of my pet peeves with VNs is both related and unrelated to your topic. Sudden change of genres which can induce sudden and unexpected episodes of drama is my problem.

Take Little Busters for example, which went something like this. Slice of Life, Slice of Life, comedy, minigame, comedy, SoL, SoL, enter Kud's route... WTF was that bullshit?!!!

Kud has to be one of the easiest examples of forced drama you can point to in the translated VN landscape. People tend to defend excessive slice of life sequences, and that's fine, the problem is excessive slice of life sequences in a story which turns out not to be about slice of life, which is when it screws up the pacing of the plot. Or slice of life which suddenly turns incredibly dark. Or incredibly actiony. Or just incredibly stupid. And usually these separate aspects are shoehorned into the VN in terrible ways with no hint that something is coming. It feels like a transparent attempt to grab more readers, but most readers only like reading 1 or 2 genres, so incorporating all genres in your VN won't actually mean more people will read it.

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In terms of Key, it probably varies in terms of how the development works as they start to get a better grasp of what they want to do, the limitations of the approach they've taken and what sacrifices have to be made in order to fulfill those.

Seeing as how it's a route-based story, more often than, not, they're gimped foreshadowing-wise in more ways than one.  They need to get just enough interesting bits here and there to making choosing a route the first time through engaging enough.  Secondly, they also need a core conflict that doesn't put bias towards any girl in particular too heavily, though this is still arguable at best.

The thing is, this means that character-specific foreshadowing is often left until the player is more or less locked into one route - and by then, there's very little time for character-specific establishment because 'Okay, they're in a route now, time to fuck shit up.'

Komari's, Kud's, Mio's (Since those are the ones I've finished in LB) routes are gimped even further by the fact that the central characters that lead to the core conflict outside the girls themselves, are in some way or another prohibited from interacting with the protagonist prior to being knee-deep in route shit, or in most cases unable to interact at all due to plot reasons.  This means you can't establish the relationship between the two earlier on because by the very definition of the route's conflict, a situation where they would be allowed to breaks the plot structure of the route as a whole.

By being unable to introduce these characters and establish the relationship prior to shit going down, it means one of the strongest tools for leveraging a conflict's foreshadowing is broken.  This is improved upon in Rewrite but that has problems all its own as well, in addition to Shizuru's route being unable to provide any sort of a meaningful resolution to its main conflicts other than "OMG FEELS START CRYING ALREADY!"

How do you feel about a VN with Sudden Onset Drama Syndrome, or SODS? 

One of my pet peeves with VNs is both related and unrelated to your topic. Sudden change of genres which can induce sudden and unexpected episodes of drama is my problem.

Take Little Busters for example, which went something like this. Slice of Life, Slice of Life, comedy, minigame, comedy, SoL, SoL, enter Kud's route... WTF was that bullshit?!!!

Kud has to be one of the easiest examples of forced drama you can point to in the translated VN landscape. People tend to defend excessive slice of life sequences, and that's fine, the problem is excessive slice of life sequences in a story which turns out not to be about slice of life, which is when it screws up the pacing of the plot. Or slice of life which suddenly turns incredibly dark. Or incredibly actiony. Or just incredibly stupid. And usually these separate aspects are shoehorned into the VN in terrible ways with no hint that something is coming. It feels like a transparent attempt to grab more readers, but most readers only like reading 1 or 2 genres, so incorporating all genres in your VN won't actually mean more people will read it.

Kud's route I was actually a fan of as my first LB route, but this is a question of promises more than anything else.  The question lies in what promises are being told to the reader, and how the story as a whole intends to fulfill on them.  At this point, KEY's name is to ubiquitous that just by having the name on the cover, as a VN fan you know what you're getting into.  It's setting a promise in and of its own, but judging by solely the VN itself and its contents or assuming that our example reader is unaware of KEY's reputation, it's likely to come across as off-putting, with a gamble of whether or not they'll like it or not.

KEY seems to be somewhat tone and pacing oriented - you set up the semi-generic friendships with wacky fun and interesting conflicts, then you turn it all on its head in an attempt to make the reader cry themselves to sleep for the next week.  You set a foundation and then try to cause an emotional reaction by breaking it.  Kind of like bowling.  I've heard Ryushiki talked about it once as well - and this can be seen in Higurashi's slice of life elements as well, with the difference of a single scene placed at the beginning of the first episode.  This scene sets a promise of tone for the story as a whole, and then goes about creating the foundation of an everyday life.  Instead of coming out of nowhere, it's like a ticking timebomb where you can't see the timer.  This leads to a suspense of 'when is this foundation going to break' rather than 'oh my god the floor just caved in' as-is the metaphor with KEY.

 

As for the base question, I wouldn't call it bad writing in and of itself, as they seem to have a strong grasp of what they want to focus on with each individual story.  Set up a foundation, knock it down.  Regardless of whether you believe the foundation itself to be good, it's a working foundation nonetheless and it's a lot more than what some of the less established developers can attest to.  I mean, look at Clannad's After Story section - I'd say the system has served them quite well, even if LB's core plot allows for less foreshadowing as a result of the differences between Tomoya and Riki as protagonists.

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So this is something Ren and myself were discussing in regards to his Hoshizora and my Little Busters review. One of my biggest pet peeves in a VN is drama that just happens with no warning or hints, and completely changes the way the character in question acts. The best examples I can think of are Komari in Little Busters and Kotomi in Clannad. In both, and I'll keep this as spoiler free as possible, an event takes place, seemingly minor and inconsequential that suddenly changes the character into someone completely different. We get no hints of the sudden personality change, or no warning. It feels like it just happens out of no where. Think of a tumblr girl being triggered by the smallest thing, and that is what it sometimes looks like seeing these characters. Compare that to say, Kurugaya's route, or even Haruka in Little Busters. The drama in those routes does get hinted at, and does not feel totally out of left field. 

 

Is this a case of poor writing, or me not reading well enough to notice the most subtle of detail? Or is it something some of you can ignore and get past out of love for the character, story, or do you just like being caught off guard in that manner?

 

How do you feel about a VN with Sudden Onset Drama Syndrome, or SODS? 

 

- Gotta agree with that in Clannad, Kotomi's personality didn't have any kind of hint related to her past, yet there is one big hint that reveals her true nature: She is dandere (she is shy and cold, unless you trigger the honorific -chan after her name, and this personality shift was created due a previous traumatic experience, complemented by her duty of reading books to follow her parent's steps). This said, there is no way you would realize she is a dandere unless you have basic knowledge on the urban stereotypes in Japan (dandere is quite a strange type).

- ...but I disagree in your appreciation towards Little Busters. It really stroke me as shocking the optimistic attitude of Komari towards "everything". When people tends to view life too optimistically and they fall onto reality with a sudden twist, it is obvious that they will be going to experience a kireogire's break down, because there are certain things that can't just be viewed optimistically, as for example, a violent or a sad death. Just like stress, it was obvious she was suppressing a big memory inside.

Edited by Technos
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How do you feel about a VN with Sudden Onset Drama Syndrome, or SODS? 

One of my pet peeves with VNs is both related and unrelated to your topic. Sudden change of genres which can induce sudden and unexpected episodes of drama is my problem.

Take Little Busters for example, which went something like this. Slice of Life, Slice of Life, comedy, minigame, comedy, SoL, SoL, enter Kud's route... WTF was that bullshit?!!!

Kud has to be one of the easiest examples of forced drama you can point to in the translated VN landscape. People tend to defend excessive slice of life sequences, and that's fine, the problem is excessive slice of life sequences in a story which turns out not to be about slice of life, which is when it screws up the pacing of the plot. Or slice of life which suddenly turns incredibly dark. Or incredibly actiony. Or just incredibly stupid. And usually these separate aspects are shoehorned into the VN in terrible ways with no hint that something is coming. It feels like a transparent attempt to grab more readers, but most readers only like reading 1 or 2 genres, so incorporating all genres in your VN won't actually mean more people will read it.

After Little Busters, I now interpret "Slice of Life" as: "Here's a slice of your cake. We will throw it at your stupid face later."

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