Pabloc Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 a vn is a choice base question or a story. just because it looks different, the gameplay is different and new stuff which has never been done. it doesn't mean it should not count has a vn Err, no - when it looks different and has different gameplay, then it means exactly that - it's not a VN. Otherwise genres would be completely pointless. -.-' VNs are novels with visuals and ZERO gameplay elements (other than choices). If something has gameplay, like TellTale perfectly typical adventure games that have absolutely nothing to do with VNs, it's game, not a VN. Games have story-heavy gernes too. If a game uses typical VN-like presentation and novel-style writing (that is, it looks like a VN), it might be considered a hybrid at best (like Rance or Kamidori). Loren is just an RPG, even developer labels it as such. As for OP's question - yes, the majority of OELVNs must have Japanese settings. Because people who make them don't want to tell a story using VN as a medium. They just want to make a VN, that's all. That's why they are trying to mimic anime-style art, Japanese stereotypes, themes and setting, and sometimes even throw a bunch of random Japanese words here and there. Now, you can write a story in whatever setting you want, that's not a problem. As long as you know what you are doing, that is. Unfortunately, a typical OELVN writer has no idea about Japan, so the end result is almost always miserable. I know only one OELVN that had a Japanese setting that wasn't completely screwed up (https://vndb.org/v10754). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 when people forget what "or" means. When people don't write in understandable English lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abyssal Monkey Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Who cares? Does it make that much of a difference if the characters are Japanese, or Murrican, or Polish? No one is saying it matters what the characters are, or even the setting. What most people are at the base worried about is that the writers are doing it to the detriment of the story for not doing proper research. When Japanese companies write a story in Japan, they usually have the knowledge of the culture of Japan, so they can make a plausible story set there. OELVN's on the other hand, more likely than not, don't have the same level of cultural background to create a realistic story set there, and instead want to piggy-back off of the anime otaku culture that has developed, and in turn, make something "seemingly japanese", but ends up being completely disingenuous. If a story is set someplace purely for the grab at a certain demographic, then the story probably isn't very good in the first place. It's pretty much the same reason why I laugh at 90% of the OELVNs on this site that attempt to go for the "feels". Admittedly, I don't like nakige/utsuge, but when I see an OELVN do it, it just seems laughable. a vn is a choice base question or a story. just because it looks different, the gameplay is different and new stuff which has never been done. it doesn't mean it should not count has a vn, we have like many rpg that are vn ( http://winterwolves.com/lorenamazonprincess.htm , http://www.hanakogames.com/science.shtml , Yggdra U nion - We'll Never Fight Alone ) these are counsider vn becouse of the strong forces on story. games that not count as vn are, COD (call of duty #anything#) super meat boy, flappy bird, mario series, and more. Uh, a visual novel, is quite literally, a VISUAL NOVEL. Story focus has literally nothing to do with whether or not it is classified in the genre. All of those games you listed are different forms of RPGs, a game genre which focuses on story, but may incorporate elements of the ADV interface format. when people forget what "or" means. When people can't write in proper English. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firecat Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 all of you are one sided, no wonder you guys haven't experienced many things (yes i'm calling you a kid). If a vn was just anime with textbox and nothing more, you'll now declare dating sim (which many jp people call vn) a gameplay element that is not a vn. that also counts for the pron side of vn's which we all know has nothing to do with the story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelebek1 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Because it's an entirely subjective topic, of course we're going to differ and draw lines in different places. Suzu Fanatic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriginalRen Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 all of you are one sided, no wonder you guys haven't experienced many things (yes i'm calling you a kid). If a vn was just anime with textbox and nothing more, you'll now declare dating sim (which many jp people call vn) a gameplay element that is not a vn. that also counts for the pron side of vn's which we all know has nothing to do with the story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFantasm Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 If people don't collectively agree on something, it makes them children? That's a new one.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Alright, getting back to the topic. I think basically all the reasons were already stated here, and I guess it'll change with time. Honestly, leaving the japanese setting would be a pretty big step towards a great development of the medium - that's how I feel at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinovaA Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 In my opinion, people who know nothing about the Japanese culture should not be writing stories set in Japan. It's as simple as that. I wouldn't go writing a story in Zimbabwe, because guess what? I know nothing about Zimbabwe. Hell, I might be hard pressed to point it out to you on a map. I would rather people write what they want instead of just making something in the Japanese setting for the sake of it. What's that you say? Someone might actually WANT to make a compelling story with a Japanese setting? Well maybe if the don't skimp on the fucking research and actually put some effort into understanding as much as they humanly can about the culture, it will have some modicum of success... that is assuming that the story and writing of the OELVN is any good to begin with. Moral of the story: Just know your damn setting. XReaper 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nashetania Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abyssal Monkey Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Alright, getting back to the topic. I think basically all the reasons were already stated here, and I guess it'll change with time. Honestly, leaving the japanese setting would be a pretty big step towards a great development of the medium - that's how I feel at least. It really would. This is pretty much the reason why I have given up on all school life anime. You can only do so much with a certain setting, and VNs have really already done pretty much everything anyway with the Japanese school setting. I'd like to think it's the reason why I've personally seen a shift towards the more supernatural in the more high profile releases. Just another reason to give up on OELVN~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pabloc Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 all of you are one sided, no wonder you guys haven't experienced many things (yes i'm calling you a kid). If a vn was just anime with textbox and nothing more, you'll now declare dating sim (which many jp people call vn) a gameplay element that is not a vn. that also counts for the pron side of vn's which we all know has nothing to do with the story. No sensible Japanese person would label a dating sim as a VN. In Japan, simulation games are even further apart from VNs than on the West (though most titles that we label as VNs actually belong to the adventure game genre there). And "pron" can have a lot to do with the story, unless you are only reading crappy moeges with random, out-of-place sex-scenes. But whatever, you can label random shit as a VN, Doom as a point-and-click adventure game, and The Lord of the Rings as a space opera. Because screw genres, you know better. I would rather people write what they want instead of just making something in the Japanese setting for the sake of it. That's the biggest problem with OELVNs - nobody wants to write anything. Or rather - nobody can. Unless the Western scene gets some actual writers who have some interesting stories to tell, nothing will change. Setting can be Japanese, there's no reason why a competent writer with sufficient knowledge should avoid that. Actually, I'd gladly read a deconstruction of a moege genre, where the typical setting and characters are treated with an unhealthy dose of realism. So, we have a typical Mr Average protagonist, who is nice but has no redeeming qualities. Sexy girl transfers to his class, he is nice to her and all, but she friendzones him and sleeps with some muscular retard instead. Protagonist's childhood friend is in relationship with a rich guy from their neighborhood. His older sister gets knocked up by some handsome asshole, who disappears afterwards. His teacher is married and hates kids. In the end, the protagonist goes to jail for making moves on a loli, and gets gang-raped by a bunch of guys there. Now, that would be fun. ^^ XReaper, LinovaA and Mr Poltroon 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 That's the biggest problem with OELVNs - nobody wants to write anything. Or rather - nobody can. Unless the Western scene gets some actual writers who have some interesting stories to tell, nothing will change. Setting can be Japanese, there's no reason why a competent writer with sufficient knowledge should avoid that. Actually, I'd gladly read a deconstruction of a moege genre, where the typical setting and characters are treated with an unhealthy dose of realism. So, we have a typical Mr Average protagonist, who is nice but has no redeeming qualities. Sexy girl transfers to his class, he is nice to her and all, but she friendzones him and sleeps with some muscular retard instead. Protagonist's childhood friend is in relationship with a rich guy from their neighborhood. His older sister gets knocked up by some handsome asshole, who disappears afterwards. His teacher is married and hates kids. In the end, the protagonist goes to jail for making moves on a loli, and gets gang-raped by a bunch of guys there. Now, that would be fun. ^^ I don't know much about the OELVN scene but I don't think there's literally no competent writer in it right now. I mean, it'd actually be quite impressive if there were zero capable writers in it. Maybe the issue is the one mentioned, they don't know about what they're writing, making it not as good as it could be. The moege deconstruction actually sounds pretty legit, lmfao. firecat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abyssal Monkey Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 though most titles that we label as VNs actually belong to the adventure game genre there. Even though this is definitionally correct, I still vehemently oppose bundling VNs into the adventure game genre. It just feels wrong to call something like Imouto Paradise an adventure game when it contains absolutely no adventure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pabloc Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 @Rose There are some decent writers out there (like the one who wrote https://vndb.org/v14125), but they are the minority. Most OELVNs have crappy-fanfic-grade "writers". Even though this is definitionally correct, I still vehemently oppose bundling VNs into the adventure game genre. It just feels wrong to call something like Imouto Paradise an adventure game when it contains absolutely no adventure Of course. It makes no sense on the West, because we already have an adventure games genre (with all that point-and-click stuff). "VN" is an infinitely better term. Japanese usage of the ADV genre is somewhat distorted to begin with, like it always happens when they are borrowing English words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyanko Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 So, we have a typical Mr Average protagonist, who is nice but has no redeeming qualities. Sexy girl transfers to his class, he is nice to her and all, but she friendzones him and sleeps with some muscular retard instead. Protagonist's childhood friend is in relationship with a rich guy from their neighborhood. His older sister gets knocked up by some handsome asshole, who disappears afterwards. His teacher is married and hates kids. In the end, the protagonist goes to jail for making moves on a loli, and gets gang-raped by a bunch of guys there. Now, that would be fun. ^^ I will actually welcome this kind of OELVN with open arms, it would be refreshing. As for "Western style" VNs, it's not really that hard. IAnd if you don't know shit about culture, you just make up your own fictional world. I liked how An Octave Higher did that, and imo it worked pretty well. LinovaA 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorp Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Penaeus monodon approves! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firecat Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 @Rose There are some decent writers out there (like the one who wrote https://vndb.org/v14125), but they are the minority. Most OELVNs have crappy-fanfic-grade "writers". Of course. It makes no sense on the West, because we already have an adventure games genre (with all that point-and-click stuff). "VN" is an infinitely better term. Japanese usage of the ADV genre is somewhat distorted to begin with, like it always happens when they are borrowing English words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clephas Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 The problem with most OELVN projects is that writer-started projects tend to have crappy artists and artist-started projects tend to have shitty writing, lol. The pool of talent is disorganized and mostly volunteer enthusiasts... who might more might not have talent. Suzu Fanatic and Narcosis 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayashi Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Weeb company? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pabloc Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 @Firecat Enlighten me, which part of VNDB goals (that don't say what can be considered a VN) and Fuwanovel's clunky, but rather sensible definition (with a video showing examples of perfectly typical VNs without a hint of gameplay, except some minigames in LB) supports your claim that you can label random adventure games or RPGs as VNs with no rhyme or reason? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Poltroon Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 The entirety of this thread tbh I'm sorry. Perhaps I lack sufficient intelligence but I failed to grasp your points and thoughts on this topic just from your, carefully chosen, I'm sure, gif and single sentence. I again apologise for being unable to completely understand what you meant by this and why it would cause such a reaction from you. I'm thoroughly embarrassed. I sincerely hope you may deign to enlighten me or any others in the same predicament that are actually interested in something more than a baseless *pffff* at the rest who partook in some sort of discussion. Eclipsed and Kenshin_sama 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteN00b Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Let them do w/e they're comfortable with, personally I know more about Japan than my country :v Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Poltroon Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 [...] rather than with words that are sure not to fly past anyone's wall of ego? Touché. Why endeavour in the pointless? Personal opinion so as to not be off-topic: I couldn't care less about the setting. I can't distinguish a good story from a bad one anyways, so even if utilizing a Japanese setting would damage other parts of the writing, it would end up being the same to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzu Fanatic Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 A large portion of this thread reeks of disdain and scorn - live and let live imo. Omega_93 and Gibberish 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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