Symphonic Rain

[Silvz]

I'm almost there, so... Should I read the bad endings? I'm almost finishing Fal's route and wanted to know if they have some story, are too long... or if they're just usual bad endings, with just a few minutes of text, and no importance for the main story :3

[Zakamutt]

They are shortfuck stuff really. Possibly torta bad might be relevant ish,. otherwise it's not much use. I would still get them to see Bad Endings 3/3 at the bottom of the clear screen or whatever though.

[Snowtsuku]

It's probably /possible/, but in that case it's not in any of the BGM files and you;d need to check out actual tools and stuff.

I think. I should probably check the actual 38 files there are...

 

....yeah, the unofficial post thingy has all 38. I suppose the other thing would be to check the Song stuff, and possibly play voices to see if it's some bastardization of playing a voice or sfx file over the tune...

 

...or the version of SR you're using is different than the one I used I guess. I can't remember said song.

It's basically a slower version of Feel The Rain (Arietta's BGM) with vocals.

I don't think there are different versions of the game itself. I might be wrong though. In any case what did you use to extract all the BGMs?

 

I'm almost there, so... Should I read the bad endings? I'm almost finishing Fal's route and wanted to know if they have some story, are too long... or if they're just usual bad endings, with just a few minutes of text, and no importance for the main story :3

 

They are quite short. Feel free to skip them if you feel like skipping them.

[Zakamutt]

There are different releases of the vn, just check vndb. No idea if they are different in any substantial way, of course...

 

My extraction method consisted of exploring the vast crevasses of the BGM directory and ingeniously changing the extension of all the files from .bgm to .wav (this can be done most handily using the command prompt.) The Song folder stuff is more interesting.

[Arvis]

Dang, once you complete the game, you realize that the "bad endings", especially Fal's, are REALLY bad endings.  Ugh.  I'm getting sick just thinking about it.

 

Anyways, I took a month off from SR, but I finished Phorni's route (and therefore, the game) this weekend.  Simply incredible.  I stick with giving this VN a 10/10.  Although I predicted the major "twist" surrounding Phorni, I was surprised to see that the game treated it like you SHOULD have figured it out well before Chris does.  This whole VN was just... so well-written.

 

Who here believes that Symphonic Rain is "a novel about lying"?

 

One last thing: these poll results on this thread have new meaning to me now that I have finished the game.  I appreciate that all the characters are interesting enough to warrant this completely split decision, but I simply MUST express my real feelings: everybody who voted for Fal or Lise over Torta, Phorni, or Arietta has something really, seriously, deeply wrong with them.  There really has to be a complete lack of normal empathy and goodness to actually PREFER 1) a selfish, awful manipulator, or 2) a child with no personality, over the selfless, earnest, heartfelt devotion of Torta, Phorni, or Arietta.

 

-Arvis

[Zalor]

but I simply MUST express my real feelings: everybody who voted for Fal or Lise over Torta, Phorni, or Arietta has something really, seriously, deeply wrong with them.  There really has to be a complete lack of normal empathy and goodness to actually PREFER 1) a selfish, awful manipulator, or 2) a child with no personality, over the selfless, earnest, heartfelt devotion of Torta, Phorni, or Arietta.

 

I randomly decided to check up on Fuwa while taking a study break, and I'm glad to see that the Symphonic Rain thread is still active. Anyway, I still haven't read Phorni's route (and probably won't get to it until the semester ends), but I still don't see how Fal is a bad person. I feel like this is just going to be a repeat of the discussion we had over a month ago on page 3 of this thread, but being manipulative is human. I am currently reading Jane Austin's Pride and Prejudice for school, and that book is about how it was culturally expected to marry for money. Committing yourself to a person for the rest of your life based on economic incentives may seem manipulative, but it wasn't in the 18th century, nor was it for most of history. Marrying for love is fairly new concept that has only really been going on for the past 200, maybe 300 years. My point is that while Fal did initially start a relationship with Chris out of self interest, what is wrong with that? What's more, I think she genuinely does love him by the end of the story.

 

As for the argument that she is monster

for taking Chris to see Ari. I think he has been shielded from reality for long enough. The longer Torta kept the truth about Ari secret, the harder and harder she was making it for Chris when he does eventually find out. And I think it is inevitable that he would eventually find out. Fal realizes that in order for her and Chris to pursue their musical careers, that Chris has to get over Ari. Chris may be traumatized by the truth temporarily, but he will recover over time.

 

I'm sorry if I came across as a bit of an asshole in my defending Fal, but when somebody tells me

everybody who voted for Fal or Lise over Torta, Phorni, or Arietta has something really, seriously, deeply wrong with them.

 

I do take slight offense. I suppose one of the reason's I like Fal so much is because I myself am not much of a romantic. I can like somebody, but if I were to marry somebody I too would do so at least partially out of an economic or social incentive, not purely out of an emotion. If I were Chris I would pick Fal and that is why she is my personal favorite. That said, as a character Torta is the most interesting for analyzing. So personally I like Fal the most, but as a literary critic I like Torta the best.  

 

Edit: Somebody should vote for Ms. Cordell lol.

[Snowtsuku]

Dang, once you complete the game, you realize that the "bad endings", especially Fal's, are REALLY bad endings.  Ugh.  I'm getting sick just thinking about it.

 

Anyways, I took a month off from SR, but I finished Phorni's route (and therefore, the game) this weekend.  Simply incredible.  I stick with giving this VN a 10/10.  Although I predicted the major "twist" surrounding Phorni, I was surprised to see that the game treated it like you SHOULD have figured it out well before Chris does.  This whole VN was just... so well-written.

 

This is why I'm telling Sara to finish it -.-

 

Who here believes that Symphonic Rain is "a novel about lying"?

 

This never crossed my mind though I can see why you see it that way.

 

One last thing: these poll results on this thread have new meaning to me now that I have finished the game.  I appreciate that all the characters are interesting enough to warrant this completely split decision, but I simply MUST express my real feelings: everybody who voted for Fal or Lise over Torta, Phorni, or Arietta has something really, seriously, deeply wrong with them.  There really has to be a complete lack of normal empathy and goodness to actually PREFER 1) a selfish, awful manipulator, or 2) a child with no personality, over the selfless, earnest, heartfelt devotion of Torta, Phorni, or Arietta.

 

I'm not really a fan of Lise so I'll defend Fal votes here. Fal is more on the less romantic side of things which is understandable given the way she grew up. I think that way of thinking is pretty natural and is kind of refreshing for a heroine. Fal will still be my second favorite character, next to Arietta.

 

-Arvis

Answers in bold. As you're done with the VN, I suggest you read the short stories. Sadly, only 3/7 is translated.

[Arvis]

@Zalor and Snowtsuku: Honestly, you make great points and I never really thought that Fal treated Chris particularly poorly at all.  Heck, she even confessed the whole truth to him, which was completely unnecessary if all she wanted to do was use him.  It's obvious she loves him.  She just loves him in a totally jacked up way.  It's... it's sort of like she doesn't really know how to love somebody properly.  Which I guess is true of a lot of people IRL.  And that can mostly be blamed on the tragic circumstances of her upbringing.  She's definitely an extremely interesting character, especially as a heroine in a VN.

 

My problem with Fal, though, is not what she does to Chris; it's what she does to Torta.  Fal knows the truth about everything.  She knows what Torta has been doing, she knows the awful pain that Torta has been through: how she loves Chris devotedly (Torta is very open about this to everyone at school), how she has always loved him, how she lost her sister and has been sacrificing the remainder of her youth in order to help Chris in the best way she knows how.  Fal completely understands all of the sacrifices Torta has made and how she has denied herself a normal life simply to help the man she loves.  And, knowing this, she thinks "I am going to take all of this away from you to further my career.  Tough luck, Torta.  Your life is nothing if it gets in the way of my success."

 

That's pure evil.  That is what makes her a monster.  That she came to love Chris in the end is honestly irrelevant.  She is a bad person; irredeemable, indefensible.  It's not "refreshing", it's heartbreaking.  It's not romantic, it's depressing.  How many times has a loyal, selfless person been jilted by the person they love in favor of someone selfish and shallow?  It happens way too often in the real world and I fail to see what's romantic about it happening in a VN.  Every time the cheerleader snubs her devoted childhood friend to date the quarterback, Fal wins.  Every time the plucky, nerdy girl gets rejected because her friend is interested in somebody prettier, Fal wins.  Fal represents all that is unjust and tragic about love and romance.  She should be given zero votes, and may God have mercy on her fictional soul.

 

The reason I said that "people who prefer Fal over others have something wrong with them" is because I stupidly thought that the above viewpoint was both self-evident and intended by the author.  But considering that it appears that I am in the minority here, I'll concede that I could be the one way off base.  If there is anything wrong in my above analysis, please point it out to me.

 

All the above being said, though, she's a flipping fantastic VN heroine.  What other VN would have the guts to make the main villain a playable heroine route?  Dang this is an awesome VN.

 

-Arvis

[Funnerific]

@Arvis that's not evil, that's merely selfishness. People are selfish by nature, Fal just takes it a couple of steps further than most heroines.

[Arvis]

@Arvis that's not evil, that's merely selfishness. People are selfish by nature, Fal just takes it a couple of steps further than most heroines.

[Zakamutt]

Torta herself tries to push Chris to perform with other girls than herself, though. Then again, Torta is p. messed up in general.

Also

How many times has a loyal, selfless person [Torta]...

[Arvis]

Yes, well said, Zakamutt.  But even in something so pure (a desire to be with the person you love), Torta punishes herself for being selfish.  She treats herself unfairly, which is why she needs Chris.  For Fal to then crush her on top of everything else is just..................... unspeakable.  Ugh.  It hurts my heart when I think about it.  T_T

 

It's true, we must try to think of ourselves about the same amount that we think of others.  There's a balance to be had.  Fal, however, never considers anybody but herself, and only just barely begins to consider Chris' feelings toward the very very end of her route.  Even then, in her bad ending, she treats him like he's worthless and throws him away extremely easily.  Evil.

 

-Arvis

[Zalor]

@Zalor and Snowtsuku:

Fal completely understands all of the sacrifices Torta has made and how she has denied herself a normal life simply to help the man she loves.  And, knowing this, she thinks "I am going to take all of this away from you to further my career.  Tough luck, Torta.  Your life is nothing if it gets in the way of my success." 

[Zakamutt]

One of the reasons Fal is so interesting to me is that even at the end, she's not just super deredere devoted to Chris, she still has her own demands, selfishness etc.

[Zalor]

One of the reasons Fal is so interesting to me is that even at the end, she's not just super deredere devoted to Chris, she still has her own demands, selfishness etc.

[Zakamutt]

Now we've talked a decent lot about the other girls, but not much about Lise I think. While I still think of it as the weakest route, there are several interesting things that happen anyway. Grave, the teacher's(was it cordell?) relationship with him(?), the hints at a society where nobility can do as they wish with the lower classes etc.

 

I've seen mention that Grave is pretty much the only straight-out evil character in SR; even his excuse for lashing out at Lise (or someone else...) at some point was mostly relationship bullshit (I can't fully remember what exactly went down here) and only a contributing cause combined with his general assholery. Do you agree?

 

What do you think shaped Grave's character? There are hints of pressure due to being from an upper-class family, and it's possible he's applying similar methods with Lise as were once applied to him.

 

While Torta's and Fal's deceptions are much more significant, even Lise lies somewhat. She's actually enrolled as a Fortell player, not a singer. Symphonic Rain: Everybody Lies.

 

What is your take on Lise's ending? Do you think she will recover her singing voice, and what will happen if she doesn't? The ED is interesting, because the very start indicates a collapse / break of some kind, after which you hear this really sentimental song playing. Does it represent Lise escaping from reality? It might be describing a progression from her near-catatonic state to the feeling of freedom she finally feels when she can sing a bit, and also a freedom from Grave's cruelty...

[Snowtsuku]

While Torta's and Fal's deceptions are much more significant, even Lise lies somewhat. She's actually enrolled as a Fortell player, not a singer. Symphonic Rain: Everybody Lies.

[Arvis]

About the Fal Torta thing, honestly I prefer what Fal did. I'm not really a fan of dragging things out like what Torta did to Chris which is one of the reasons I dislike Torta. While I know it's out of love or something, I just don't think it's justifiable.

[Zalor]

"I am going to take the love of your life away from you because it is convenient for me."  Destroying somebody else's happiness unnecessarily is the definition of evil.

 

As I wrote later in the post you responded to, "all's fair in love and war". Also my point is not that what Fal did was right in anyway, but that she is simply not evil or a villain. First and foremost I am always skeptical when I hear the word evil because it is a very biased word. Throughout history the winning sides and the losing sides depict each other as evil. But in the end neither are completely innocent. Its just a lot easier to call winners evil because they benefit. What makes Fal's character so great is that she is unscrupulous, but isn't painted in a one dimensional way where she is evil. In fact I would argue that only 1 dimensional characters can be evil due to how biased the concept of evil is.  

 

This ties in perfectly with why I hated Lise's route and pretend like it doesn't exist (sorry Lise fans). Grave and Lise are perhaps the worst characters in the VN. All the other characters are three dimensional. Grave is simply portrayed as a complete bastard, (ironically isn't Lise technically a bastard in the classic definition of the word). Grave is evil because he is one dimensional. Evil describes something that is purely bad, that has no redeemable aspect. Meaning evil characters are intrinsically one dimensional because they are only allowed to exhibit one characteristic. This is why Fal isn't evil. The very fact that her character has multiple dimensions means that it is impossible for her to be evil. Is she a bad person? Depending on your interpretation, sure she may be a bad person. But is she evil? No.

 

As for Lise, she is boring and holds almost no relevance to the overall story. At lease Fal served as a romantic rival for Torta

which is why Fal still appears in AlfIne.

As far as I see it, Lise is just there to provide more insight into Grave since Grave is

Fal's sponsor.

Even though Fal only plays a small role regarding the main story, she does play a role. As far as I remember Lise doesn't really exist outside of the her route, and the common route.   

[Snowtsuku]

To me it doesn't matter whether what Torta did is for Chris or not. What matters to me is that what she did is wrong. How can you simply say that she did that for Chris? Just look at Chris through out the story. I can't really say it's for Chris. It's more like for self satisfaction imo.

The thing with Fal is that she is judged based on her life perspective. I see Fal as someone who heard Chris' music, fell in love with it and did her best to win his heart. Also the fact that she wants Chris to see reality about her and about the whole situation is a plus for me.

Just to add. Someone reminded me of this. Read it for the lulz. I love the plot twist joke. http://archive.moe/jp/thread/7726948

[Arvis]

@Zalor:  Adolf Hitler enjoyed good music, was a skilled painter, was good buddies with Joseph Goebbels and was Best Man at his wedding.  He was well-liked by many and had a very real, complex personality.  He was also evil. 

Fal is similarly evil, and definitely a villain.  Just because she is exceedingly complex and well-written does not automatically make her redeemable.  You and I certainly agree about Grave and Lise, though, for sure.

 

 

To me it doesn't matter whether what Torta did is for Chris or not. What matters to me is that what she did is wrong. How can you simply say that she did that for Chris?

[Zalor]

@Zalor:  Adolf Hitler enjoyed good music, was a skilled painter, was good buddies with Joseph Goebbels and was Best Man at his wedding.  He was well-liked by many and had a very real, complex personality.  He was also evil. 

 

Please lets not get into Godwin's law here. Fal is a far cry from Hitler and is incomparable to him. Using a highly exaggerated Hitler comparison is hardly appropriate and a cheap tactic. I will say this regarding the issue. Evil, ironically enough, is an evil word as it drains anything human from the person it is used to describe. All people are human, some are really heavy shades of gray, but no body is pure black on the morality spectrum. Now lets please drop Hitler as he is irrelevant. 

[Snowtsuku]

I don't know how can you say that Chris is happy because Torta kept everything. Even in Phorni's route Asino noted that he looks better after knowing the truth about Arietta.

And besides the only reason Arietta wants Chris to be with Torta is because she doesn't know when she'll wake up. Heck if anything, I'll say that it's Arietta who's making the sacrifice by not telling the truth about about her.

Again, the only reason Fal is seen that way is because of how she was presented. You can call her a gold digger for loving Chris' talents but then how do you call people who find love because they don't want to be lonely? Isn't it similar to what Fal is saying? The thing is of you think about her world view, it's ugly not because she's a bad person, it's ugly because it's realistic.

[Arvis]

Please lets not get into Godwin's law here. Fal is a far cry from Hitler and is incomparable to him. Using a highly exaggerated Hitler comparison is hardly appropriate and a cheap tactic. I will say this regarding the issue. Evil, ironically enough, is an evil word as it drains anything human from the person it is used to describe. All people are human, some are really heavy shades of gray, but no body is pure black on the morality spectrum. Now lets please drop Hitler as he is irrelevant. 

And yet it is a fact that there are evil people in the world.  I really don't mean to be so bull-headed about this, and I am normally not.  But "evil" is a real, actual thing.  And if you're a person who does nothing but hurt people while feeling no remorse for it, you're evil.  I don't think that's an unreasonable viewpoint.

Again, sorry for being so rigid.

 

 

I don't know how can you say that Chris is happy because Torta kept everything. Even in Phorni's route Asino noted that he looks better after knowing the truth about Arietta.

This is true.  However, Chris simultaneously learned the truth about Phorni, as well, which obviously affected his emotional state and reaction.  Had Torta known about Phorni, that would have changed absolutely everything, I think.

 

 

And besides the only reason Arietta wants Chris to be with Torta is because she doesn't know when she'll wake up.

Well, if it were really that simple, Chris could have been with anyone.  But it was Arietta's desire that he be with Torta specifically, because she knew for a fact that Torta loved Chris unconditionally and truly desired his happiness above even her own.  Again, Torta is not perfect and of course has selfish desires, but her feelings for Chris aren't dependent on them.  Ari knows this and knows that Chris would be happiest with somebody who cares about him for who he is, not what he can do.

 

 

Again, the only reason Fal is seen that way is because of how she was presented. You can call her a gold digger for loving Chris' talents but then how do you call people who find love because they don't want to be lonely?

Well, in a work of fiction, how a character is presented is how that character IS, I'm afraid.  Beyond that, you are literally seeing what isn't there.  She is intended to be a villain, a foil to the twins.  The fact that she is really cute and sweet the entire time can make this hard to accept, but it is still the truth.  It's what makes her such a great character.

I like your point about people who "find love because they are lonely", though.  That can be considered selfish, too; getting involved with a person, not because you care about them, but simply because they are there and willing.  That bears a certain brand of awfulness, as well, similar to gold-digging.  But just like any relationship, real feelings can develop over time, even if they weren't there to begin with.  And the opposite is true, too: people fall OUT of love everyday.  But that usually only happens when one or both people begin being selfish and putting themselves ahead of their partner.  The best-case scenario is an unselfish love based on principle that is requited.  And even then, a love like that requires daily maintenance.  This is why Torta and Ari are so good for Chris: they're devoted to him.  Fal is devoted to herself.

 

 

The thing is of you think about her world view, it's ugly not because she's a bad person, it's ugly because it's realistic.

As a very happily married man, this is a subjective statement I highly disagree with.

 

I know I am coming off as totally inflexible on this issue, and it's bothering me.  I don't want to be a jerk.

I feel I need to reiterate that Fal is a great character.  But it's her villainy that makes her so interesting.  She hurts everyone and helps no one.  That is not normal, nor is it acceptable.  It's wrong.  It's bad.  It's what we teach children NOT to be.  Nobody should ever be accepting of this behavior, nor make excuses for it.

 

-Arvis

[Snowtsuku]

This is true.  However, Chris simultaneously learned the truth about Phorni, as well, which obviously affected his emotional state and reaction.  Had Torta known about Phorni, that would have changed absolutely everything, I think.

 

True. Even then, saying that what Torta did is better is not necessarily true as well.

 

Well, if it were really that simple, Chris could have been with anyone.  But it was Arietta's desire that he be with Torta specifically, because she knew for a fact that Torta loved Chris unconditionally and truly desired his happiness above even her own.  Again, Torta is not perfect and of course has selfish desires, but her feelings for Chris aren't dependent on them.  Ari knows this and knows that Chris would be happiest with somebody who cares about him for who he is, not what he can do.

 

While it was shown that Arietta is indeed in favor of Torta, I was also shown that she was fine with Fal and Lise. In the end of their routes, Arietta disappeared because she thought Chris will now be happy without her. The only reason IMO that she favors Torta is because she knows Torta better than the others. The last sentence doesn't make sense as well as since she doesn't really meet Fal and Lise long enough to know them. IIRC when Fal revealed everything, Arietta was already gone.

 

Well, in a work of fiction, how a character is presented is how that character IS, I'm afraid.  Beyond that, you are literally seeing what isn't there.  She is intended to be a villain, a foil to the twins.  The fact that she is really cute and sweet the entire time can make this hard to accept, but it is still the truth.  It's what makes her such a great character.

 

I like your point about people who "find love because they are lonely", though.  That can be considered selfish, too; getting involved with a person, not because you care about them, but simply because they are there and willing.  That bears a certain brand of awfulness, as well, similar to gold-digging.  But just like any relationship, real feelings can develop over time, even if they weren't there to begin with.  And the opposite is true, too: people fall OUT of love everyday.  But that usually only happens when one or both people begin being selfish and putting themselves ahead of their partner.  The best-case scenario is an unselfish love based on principle that is requited.  And even then, a love like that requires daily maintenance.  This is why Torta and Ari are so good for Chris: they're devoted to him.  Fal is devoted to herself.

 

Wasn't it implied in the end that Fal was able to love Chris for who he is? Aside from the screens Zalor posted, she also gave Chris half of her pendant, which was shown to be important to her.

 

As a very happily married man, this is a subjective statement I highly disagree with.

 

I know I am coming off as totally inflexible on this issue, and it's bothering me.  I don't want to be a jerk.

I feel I need to reiterate that Fal is a great character.  But it's her villainy that makes her so interesting.  She hurts everyone and helps no one.  That is not normal, nor is it acceptable.  It's wrong.  It's bad.  It's what we teach children NOT to be.  Nobody should ever be accepting of this behavior, nor make excuses for it.

 

To be honest, I see Fal and Torta on the same side. They both did the wrong things. However, Torta drag things for years while Fal felt like she needs to be honest to continue and I don't know why a complete evil will do this. Fal could have gone and fooled Chris the rest of this life. If we are to not make excuses, I say Torta is worse than Fal. After all, the reason the conflicts in Symphonic Rain happened is because 1) Arietta was caught in an accident and 2) Torta lied to Chris. I don't think you can blame Arietta, but there's Torta to blame.

In bold.

Also, I don't really mind the hate for Fal. After all, she's was a character created to be hated however I think she also has her good points. This is why I want to read all of the Short Stories, since if I'm not mistaken, there are still 2 Fal stories and 1 Arietta story.

And lastly, Arietta is love.