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@Thyndd:

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22 hours ago, Thyndd said:

Muv Luv is probably the boldest idea I've ever seen in any form of media. Now that I've finished the trilogy I definitely can appreciate what they intended to do with Extra, and to a lesser extent, with Unlimited. I mean, I knew beforehand that things were gonna get ugly in Alternative, so it was not hard to deduce that there would be a stark contrast between both atmospheres playing for shock value, but now I can clearly see that the objectives in Extra go way beyond that. You see, I believe the strongest point of Muv Luv is how immersive it can be. Every single detail is aimed at making you feel as a part of that world. Granted, Extra is almost as cliched as it gets, but precisely because of that it's fairly relatable: just a normal life, with some quirks for comedic purposes, but nothing too hard to accept. By doing this and dragging it A LOT, MuvLuv is trying to accomplish several things at once: get you acquainted with the characters, sure. They need to feel like friends you've known forever; by sheer virtue of its duration, you are bound to feel, want it or not, as if that story and characters belong to your reality; and last and most importantly, it's going to bore the fuck out of you... but why do you feel like that? Well, because at first you start MuvLuv with the same mentality you approach every piece of fiction. You expect it to be something different, something unique that would never happen to you, an adventure. I mean, that's pretty much the whole point of reading fiction, right? But what do you get? Nothing. Or rather, you get a mirror image of your life, that is, a normal life. So you get bored, and understandably so. You are begging for all the action and interesting stuff to go down... and then you get to Alternative. And the MC Takeru gets excited. And you get excited with him, because shit is about to happen, and you waited like 30h for it. This is the point where all the buildup from Extra/Unlimited was trying to get you, while at the same time having you feel extremely familiar with the Muv Luv universe.

I think there's no need to say what happens next :makina: Shit goes wrong, unbelievably wrong for what you initially expect from this kind of stories, but totally understandable and realistic if you are willing to accept it as reality, which at this point is hardly an issue. Muv Luv plays like this with your mind. It's the kind of story you would never wish to immerse yourself, but by the time you realise that it's already too late: you are one with Takeru and the metaverse. And oh how you wish you could go back to the distant days of Extra, far away from all the suffering and despair that shroud Alternative. So much so that I legit teared up when during the PTSD arc when Takeru returns for a brief period of time and you get to see again that world.

Yeah, definitely, I don't even have anything to add. To be honest, if I heard somebody explain the idea of building a story in such a way, I would never believe it would work. I'd say it's just bad writing, and that good parts, no matter how good they are, never justify the slow beginning. But Alternative proves me wrong. As much as I like to bash Extra, I don't see any other way how this trilogy could be done better (except for, maybe, making the comedic parts a bit funnier, though it may be Ixrec's fault in the end).

22 hours ago, Thyndd said:

I have my issues with the ending though. I've never been a fan of the "it's like it's never happened" kind of ending. I get that it was implied that Takeru, in his current state as a persona, would never fit again in his old world (which I don't think it's necessarily true, but whatever), but to be honest I was hoping for him to end up remembering everything and telling Sumika, just as he said he would if he got back to his world. I think it's pretty lame that everything they went through and connect them together more strongly than ever, and all the evolution and growth Takeru did as a person just disappeared into thin air. Nope, not a fan, definitely.

Not matter how satisfying it would be, this type of ending wouldn't be Muv Luv anymore. The ending to MLA is really unsatisfying, to the point where it's really hard to accept it... but I still like it. At the last moment, where you only expect your standard cliche bittersweet ending, Muv Luv suddenly bares its fangs again, and you get something completely different again. No matter what the story itself implies, Takeru is basically dead in the end. And it's effectively a downer ending, since only Kasumi remembers him in the end, and even the most heartbreaking promise with Meiya is still broken, like many other promises that happen in this series. That person we see in the epilogue, even though he, apparently, has the same memories as Takeru from Alternative, hidden deep inside, is still a different person, as long as they are never going to resurface. Muv Luv isn't a story of growing up. Metaphorically speaking, it's a story of the whole Takeru's life, starting from his innocent childhood in Extra, and ending at his tragic and untimely, but peaceful death at the end of Alternative, after his life was completely broken by the horrors of war. This type of ending, I believe, fits this type of story incredibly well, but of course this is just an interpretation I personally follow, and you may disagree with it if you want to. :)

 

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10 minutes ago, wei123 said:

To be honest, Sharin no Kuni isn't exactly lighthearted, as it has its tense moments (though obviously not to the extent of MLA). If you had read Grisaia, I'm sure you would find the two to be quite similar. With that being said, Sharin is still a pretty solid vn in terms of plot so good luck with it!

Oh I wasn't exactly referring to the tone, but the style. MLA is pretty dense, with a lot of info constantly thrown to your face what with military strategies and stuff :leecher: Yep! I read Grisaia and someone told me that Yuuji was based on the MC from Sharin no Kuni. More Yuuji is always good.

9 minutes ago, Mr Poltroon said:

WoooOOOoooh...
Wait for the English localisation to come ouuuuuuut...
woOOOOooooHHhh...

I actually waited for a while, but I'm getting impatient! Plus as long as the fan translation isn't terrible... It's not like the official translation is guaranteed to be better anyway :yumiko:

4 minutes ago, Dreamysyu said:

Not matter how satisfying it would be, this type of ending wouldn't be Muv Luv anymore. The ending to MLA is really unsatisfying, to the point where it's really hard to accept it... but I still like it. At the last moment, where you only expect your standard cliche bittersweet ending, Muv Luv suddenly bares its fangs again, and you get something completely different again. No matter what the story itself implies, Takeru is basically dead in the end. And it's effectively a downer ending, since only Kasumi remembers him in the end, and even the most heartbreaking promise with Meiya is still broken, like many other promises that happen in this series. That person we see in the epilogue, even though he, apparently, has the same memories as Takeru from Alternative, hidden deep inside, is still a different person, as long as they are never going to resurface. Muv Luv isn't a story of growing up. Metaphorically speaking, it's a story of the whole Takeru's life, starting from his innocent childhood in Extra, and ending at his tragic and untimely, but peaceful death at the end of Alternative, after his life was completely broken by the horrors of war. This type of ending, I believe, fits this type of story incredibly well, but of course this is just an interpretation I personally follow, and you may disagree with it if you want to.

I get your point, but if the ending wanted to be bittersweet so badly, couldn't they just make Takeru stay in the Alternative world and die there without ever getting reunited with his comrades? The way I see it, showing the old world where Takeru is no longer the Takeru we followed is rather pointless, because that world was supposed to exist anyway. The only difference is, as you said, that he has some faint memories deep inside. Not that it makes that big a difference if he will never remember anyway :amane:

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5 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

I get your point, but if the ending wanted to be bittersweet so badly, couldn't they just make Takeru stay in the Alternative world and die there without ever getting reunited with his comrades? The way I see it, showing the old world where Takeru is no longer the Takeru we followed is rather pointless, because that world was supposed to exist anyway. The only difference is, as you said, that he has some faint memories deep inside. Not that it makes that big a difference if he will never remember anyway :amane:

Hmmm. I think, this type of completely downer ending would be even more criticized, to be honest. Whether it would fit the story, I don't know, I think it would. On the other hand, the main difference would be that this type of ending would still be completely predictable, as the one you described in your previous post. The actual ending is way more unpredictable. I'm not sure if that matters. Also, I'm pretty sure they wanted to leave an open ending where everyone would interpret it however they want to.

And, by the way, I wonder what the reaction of the Japanese fans about the ending was. I think, this is the part where the cultural differences would matter the most.

But then again, Alternative isn't really about it's ending, it's more about the journey that we take to get to this ending.

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24 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

Oh I wasn't exactly referring to the tone, but the style. MLA is pretty dense, with a lot of info constantly thrown to your face what with military strategies and stuff :leecher: Yep! I read Grisaia and someone told me that Yuuji was based on the MC from Sharin no Kuni. More Yuuji is always good.

I actually waited for a while, but I'm getting impatient! Plus as long as the fan translation isn't terrible... It's not like the official translation is guaranteed to be better anyway :yumiko:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I get your point, but if the ending wanted to be bittersweet so badly, couldn't they just make Takeru stay in the Alternative world and die there without ever getting reunited with his comrades? The way I see it, showing the old world where Takeru is no longer the Takeru we followed is rather pointless, because that world was supposed to exist anyway. The only difference is, as you said, that he has some faint memories deep inside. Not that it makes that big a difference if he will never remember anyway :amane:

 

 

I played through the translation twice back in the day and I never really noticed anything bad about it.

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4 minutes ago, Dreamysyu said:

The actual ending is way more unpredictable

Well I mean, Yuuko already made it clear at some point that even if he got back to his world he would "merge" with the other Takeru and eventually forget everything, so I dunno if unpredictable is the word. I think the ending is more accurately defined as a big troll :makina: It's like it appears to be happy, but it's not, and all the fluffliness and gaudy music and colors rub it in your face.

9 minutes ago, Dreamysyu said:

But then again, Alternative isn't really about it's ending, it's more about the journey that we take to get to this ending.

Yep, 100% agree. That's why I didn't bother ranting about the ending that much. For me it's not that important in this particular case. Weird, because the ending is often the cherry on the cake

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1 minute ago, Thyndd said:

Well I mean, Yuuko already made it clear at some point that even if he got back to his world he would "merge" with the other Takeru and eventually forget everything, so I dunno if unpredictable is the word.

Hmm, I don't remember this very well, but she never said clearly that he wasn't going to remember the events of Alternative, did she? I guess, it makes perfect sense in the end, considering that Takeru lost his main goal in life and was overpowered by another personality, but to me personally this still came as a surprise.

Well, I guess I'll leave it at that. :sachi: I don't think there's anything more to say.

And, yeah, thank you again for sharing your experience with us. :) This was very entertaining to read.

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I'm currently playing Tsujidou-san and it is quite enjoyable, yet very average in most things it does. The common route was quite entertaining with its cast and the comedy, but I've been playing Ai's route and it is a mixed bag, with there being some really fun comedy and certain events that I enjoyed, while there also being a lot of romantic filler and boring moments that plague it as well. That being said, I enjoy Maki quite a bit, so I can't wait to read her route. I've also heard good things about Renna's as well, so we'll have to see if it improves or not.

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I finally decided it was time to bite the bullet grab my heart and complete rewrite. I only read Lucias route last time but It's time to finish it and after reading little busters reading the common route of rewrite again is fascinating.

Edited by bogdankl
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About MLA's ending:

Spoiler

I think the ending is basically saying that "Maturity is only attained through suffering."

As such, Takeru erasing his memories "heals" his suffering. Thus, his maturity -his development- is undone. It made sense to me.

I felt it was a sensible ending. Takeru was never meant to be a leader or a soldier. He IS an insufferable idiot at heart. He's back home. 

In the end, he did somewhat save Earth in the alternative timeline. 

So, he chose to be happy over being mature. A respectable choice, in my regards. 

I didn't care much for the cast or the game (ML Extra is my most detested VN of all time) but I felt that the ending was appropriate. Like how it's depressing to see children mature beyond their years due to being abused or abandoned, Takeru was never meant to mature. 

I do feel that an ending focusing on overcoming loss and accepting your new life (Yuuko too dies perhaps and Takeru is unable to go to his old world) could've been more interesting, appropriate and narratively strong, but alas.

 

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On 27/03/2018 at 3:01 PM, Dergonu said:

Alright, finished Kikokugai, and man, I loved it. The setting was really cool, the writing was fantastic, and the art in the remake is just... :Chocola:

Thank you so much Dergonu for mentioning Kikokugai, I was amazed at how well the world was explained for such a short VN. For the two evenings I spent reading Kikokugai the story certainly packed a punch!

On 01/04/2018 at 8:42 PM, Thyndd said:

MuvLuv Alternative finished!

Well, and that's it. And as always, thank you all so much for being there to exchange thoughts and impressions. It definitely makes this all the more enjoyable :sachi:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Thyndd, like you I agree that without fully reading Extra/Unlimited the reader wouldn't be fully invested into the dialogue of Alternative; and therefore not appreciate the overall message.

I did consider changing another favourite on VNDB to 9.9 to make MLA sit at the top in my list as it was a truly wonderful reading experience... except the two sleepless nights! :rolleyes:

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oh f!!k

Spoiler

in the common route for rewrite chihaya mentions while talking about the sewing club that she is sick of needles, is this like some sort of foreshadowing that she was experimented on agent 47 style and that's why she is stupidly strong

 

also earlier when I got stuck in the infinite loop in the school with yoshino after they crashed in the club room before kotarou leaves the final line that akane says is that all that I've see before was probably a dream... they all know something... they all f!!king know don't they

if this is true this is the kind of subtle thing that I miss by skipping through all the read text while doing the next route. I'm kinda scared cuz I love all the girls in this vn, they are all 10+ for me and I'm afraid that... well I just hope this does not do something like the comyu main route did.

Edited by bogdankl
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20 hours ago, bogdankl said:

oh f!!k

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in the common route for rewrite chihaya mentions while talking about the sewing club that she is sick of needles, is this like some sort of foreshadowing that she was experimented on agent 47 style and that's why she is stupidly strong

 

also earlier when I got stuck in the infinite loop in the school with yoshino after they crashed in the club room before kotarou leaves the final line that akane says is that all that I've see before was probably a dream... they all know something... they all f!!king know don't they

if this is true this is the kind of subtle thing that I miss by skipping through all the read text while doing the next route. I'm kinda scared cuz I love all the girls in this vn, they are all 10+ for me and I'm afraid that... well I just hope this does not do something like the comyu main route did.

Fufufu you can't trust anyone. Yeah this was like the first Key VN that I played where I loved the whole cast. Usually there are at least one or two that I'm not crazy about. Not this time.

Oh so I finished Starlight Vega and I enjoyed it quite a bit, I thought the harem ending was really cute. I've started playing Family Project and I like it quite a bit. The cast are all really strange and it doesn't take place in a high school which is always a bonus for me.

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Pretty much beaten Kyonyuu Fantasy 3, all that's left is the end game ero scenes. Overall I enjoyed it, though it started to show its story weaknesses in the final arc of the story...

Spoiler

Basically this is where the plot feels rushed, a little too similar to KF1's final arc even more so than KF2 did, and the villain is kind of dull. While he has better motivations than Highness and Alhif did in 2, he doesn't have quite the same amount of villainous presence that the others of the series have had

 

 

Playing some Eiyuu Senki, which is enjoyable in its bizarro history as ever, though I can't help but find it funny how late in the game the main plot kind of goes the way of Fallout 4.

Spoiler

Especially if you consider the turns as actual days it's kind of funny imagining things on Arthur's end.

 

Arthur: Oh my god, the big bad has completely taken over my mind and turned me and my best warriors evil! Oh, but I'm sure the Servant of Heaven will save us like he said he would.

 

(meanwhile) MC: Okay, let's get Nero's concert going! Then we've got that World's Cutest Animal Contest Himiko's organizing with Charlemagne, checking out a bakery with Napoleon, trying to find Musashi with Sasaki Kojiro and helping Vlad get her place cleaned. Still, I must not forget the most import thing after that...the ever growing list of booty calls :makina:

 

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So, I decided to try another otome and started reading Cinderella Phenomenon (thanks to @Mr Poltroon for recommending it). And, actually, it turned out to be really good! I mean, it's definitely not the best VN ever, there are some noticeable issues with it (though all of them are really minor). On the other hand, it has interesting set of characters, especially the main heroine, good intrigue, nice world-building, and a bit naive, but still interesting story. I'm definitely going to finish it and write a more thorough reaction after that.

Strangely enough, for the first time in many months I feel like I actually want to read the VN I read and not to switch to something else. Do I need to switch to otome for some time, perhaps?

8/10 for now, it may go either way in the future depending on how they finish it.

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2 hours ago, Dreamysyu said:

So, I decided to try another otome and started reading Cinderella Phenomenon (thanks to @Mr Poltroon for recommending it). And, actually, it turned out to be really good! I mean, it's definitely not the best VN ever, there are some noticeable issues with it (though all of them are really minor). On the other hand, it has interesting set of characters, especially the main heroine, good intrigue, nice world-building, and a bit naive, but still interesting story. I'm definitely going to finish it and write a more thorough reaction after that.

*_* I was actually going to start this today! 

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Still playing Family Project one of the characters is voiced by Satou Masayoshi, which is really weird because I can't help but picture Houzuki voicing some of these bizarre lines. It's all, very unnerving.

Edited by Ranzo
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18 minutes ago, Ranzo said:

Still playing Family Project one of the characters is voiced by Satou Masayoshi, which is really weird because I can't help but picture Houzuki voicing some of these bizarre lines. It's all, very unnerving.

At least in Family Project we didn't have this Diao-chan here XDDD - beware of the brain bleach XDDDDD. And yes, for Diao-chan he did use his usual tone (Hozuki like tone).

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6 minutes ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

Do you have the MangaGamer version? I could do all routes all uncensored with their Acta Est Fabula

 So it's best to go for Fabula? But I've read that Amentes has extra content, though I'm not sure how much.

Edited by wei123
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4 hours ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:

Mangagamer's Acta Est Fabula has all 4 routes, I think that's all the extra content but maybe not

I think you are wrong. The Mangagamer package does include both verisons, I think? But Acta Est Fabula doesn't have the extra scenes from Amantes, and a common advice, from what I know, is to read Amantes first and the continue to Fabula if you need the h-scenes (that's how I will do it when I eventually start reading this VN).

@wei123

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35 minutes ago, Dreamysyu said:

I think you are wrong. The Mangagamer package does include both verisons, I think? But Acta Est Fabula doesn't have the extra scenes from Amantes, and a common advice, from what I know, is to read Amantes first and the continue to Fabula if you need the h-scenes (that's how I will do it when I eventually start reading this VN).

@wei123

Much appreciated. Just skipped my way through Kasumi's route in Fabula and realized that there were 4 short not-so-important H-scenes which weren't shown in Amantes. Guess I will first complete Amantes

Edited by wei123
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