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Muv Luv: A Pretty Sweet Visual Novel Series Kickstarter [MILLION DOLLAR BABY]


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23 minutes ago, Mkilbride said:

Yeah, and so what? It's a VN about aliens, mecha, and all kinds of stuff. I'm just saying the medium is always full of impossible, unrealistic stuff. That's half the point.

Hmmm, you're actually missing the point. The reviewer is implying he was not willing to suspend his disbelief, which has little to do with having unrealistic stuff in a story.

Quote

Suspension of disbelief, or willing suspension of disbelief, is an important element in drama and storytelling. It refers to an audience becoming emotionally invested in the story despite their sure knowledge that it is not actually happening. In effect, the audience implicitly agrees to pretend the story’s reality is the only reality. To help achieve this effect, the storyteller must create convincing characters and gripping plots. The overall story may be fantastic or even impossible, but as long as it remains entertaining and internally consistent, the audience will eagerly accept it as plausible.

In criticism, the term is often used negatively. As suspension of disbelief is a basic concept all stories must achieve, critics sometimes accuse a writer or filmmaker of failing at this. This usually means the story was preposterous, contradicted itself, or had characters doing things real people probably wouldn’t do. Even if the characters have impossible abilities or live in an impossible world, they should still behave realistically. This allows the audience to sympathize with them, another essential element of good storytelling.

An opposite principle also applies. Suspension of disbelief is easier if the story is highly entertaining. The Star Wars and James Bond film series, to name just two examples, are famous for emphasizing fun, flashy effects over realistic detail. Every decade, numerous films achieve blockbuster status by impressing audiences with cutting-edge special effects. The realistic effects allow audiences worldwide to willingly accept the fantastic story lines. Professional critics, who routinely see many such movies, may not be as quick to suspend their disbelief, however.

Internal consistency is another important aspect for suspension of disbelief. While a story may be full of fantastic phenomena, it must obey the rules as established in the story itself. Dead characters cannot return to life, for example, unless the story has previously established how this is possible. Overuse of such unrealistic devices, especially in comic books and movies, has become so common that many are in danger of becoming clichés. Inconsistent or unrealistic plot devices can make the overall story unbelievable; for a modern audience, the suspension of disbelief can be a fragile thing.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-suspension-of-disbelief.htm

It's different for every person, so just because the reviewer was unable to suspend his disbelief that doesn't mean you or your friend or your family won't. It's still a valid criticism though, and it's one of the many reasons why review scores should vary significantly from person to person.

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8 minutes ago, Mkilbride said:

The reviewer literally moans about transphobia / homophobia in the game because MC's friend is feminine.

 

 

 

Steins;Gate is also transphobic at points, and I say that with S;G being my favorite VN. The vast majority of all takes on homosexuals or transgender characters in Japanese media is heavily regressive, especially when you look at them through the lens of someone used to american media. Muv Luv might not be too bad about that compared to other VNs or anime, but that doesn't mean that doesn't mean there's no room for criticism there. Japanese media as a whole could use a lot of improvement in that department and someone who isn't used to it could easily find Mikoto to be shocking or even offensive.

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25 minutes ago, Decay said:

Steins;Gate is also transphobic at points, and I say that with S;G being my favorite VN. The vast majority of all takes on homosexuals or transgender characters in Japanese media is heavily regressive, especially when you look at them through the lens of someone used to american media. Muv Luv might not be too bad about that compared to other VNs or anime, but that doesn't mean that doesn't mean there's no room for criticism there. Japanese media as a whole could use a lot of improvement in that department and someone who isn't used to it could easily find Mikoto to be shocking or even offensive.

Jesus christ, are you serious? I'm on the wrong forum.

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Transphobia? Where? Spoilers about certain character.
 

Spoiler

Is it when Takeru couldn't get his mind around Mikoto being a girl? Because Mikoto was his male friend for whole his school life, and suddenly in different universe she's a girl? Without any warning, without any sign, just like that, she's a girl here. Anybody would be baffled and couldn't 'switch' his/her mind about situations like that. Especially considering that Takeru is completly alone in this new universe, nobody knows him, everything is different. And last nail to the coffin is that his only male friend is a girl here. Baffling.

I was with Takeru on this one. I know that in this universe Mikoto is a girl, and he probably was girl even in Extra, but I just couldn't. I never read his/her route in Unlimited. Not because some internalized homo/transphobia, but because Mikoto was his friend and Takeru was seeing her as his friend. Any 'romantic story' in their relationship sounded fake, false, and simply wrong. Even wronger than your typical for anime/vns senario: 'female friend wants the d'.

 

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I would have to fully replay this to properly remember all the details, but I remember a degree of insensitivity surrounding the handling of Mikoto's femininity. It's also not nearly as bad as the worst of the VN world has to offer, it was pretty tame all-told. I can still imagine someone who's not used to that kind of thing being weirded out by it, because it's handled fundamentally differently in Japanese media from how it's typically handled in western media.

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Just now, Decay said:

I would have to fully replay this to properly remember all the details, but I remember a degree of insensitivity surrounding the handling of Mikoto's femininity. It's also not nearly as bad as the worst of the VN world has to offer. I can still imagine someone who's not used to that kind of thing being weirded out by it, because it's handled fundamentally differently in Japanese media from how it's typically handled in western media.

Nothing about it weirded me out.  Shiroganes response was completely logical, regardless of your country.

 

If your best friend, a guy, suddenly became a girl overnight, just like that, no lead up to it, you just woke up, and he was a girl now, you would not be a little put-off?  That's all Shirogane is. As for Steins;gate, it's not transphobic at all. It's logical. If you're not gay or bisexual, it means you're not attracted to men...doesn't make you an awful person, just like being gay or bisexual doesn't make you an awful person either.  It's perfectly fine for gay people to have Gay Only bars, but try pulling a straight only bar, and you'll get a law-suit so fast. It's pretty unfair, honestly.

 

I guess you can call me transphobic, but if my best friend, who is a guy, became a woman and suddenly the prospect of being sexually attracted to them arose, yeah, I'd be freaked out.

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He over-reached there in my opinion, but it’s a single line in an otherwise solid review. He's right when he talks about the overstated sexuality of the thing, and that's always an aspect that will annoy some, then he over-reached with the transphobia line. 

I notice people on /vn/ are trying to use it to invalidate the whole article, which makes me chuckle. That’s the sort of thing you expect from /vn/.

The dude on Reddit who’s talking about how you can’t review the game without taking into consideration 'Alternative' is also in error, but that’s the sort of thing you expect from Reddit.

Generally there's a lot of angst about the review, but remember -> Extra is widely considered to be a very average story and Unlimited is not much better.

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6 minutes ago, Mkilbride said:

Nothing about it weirded me out.  Shiroganes response was completely logical, regardless of your country.

 

If your best friend, a guy, suddenly became a girl overnight, just like that, no lead up to it, you just woke up, and he was a girl now, you would not be a little put-off?  That's all Shirogane is. As for Steins;gate, it's not transphobic at all. It's logical. If you're not gay or bisexual, it means you're not attracted to men...doesn't make you an awful person, just like being gay or bisexual doesn't make you an awful person either.  It's perfectly fine for gay people to have Gay Only bars, but try pulling a straight only bar, and you'll get a law-suit so fast. It's pretty unfair, honestly.

 

I guess you can call me transphobic, but if my best friend, who is a guy, became a woman and suddenly the prospect of being sexually attracted to them arose, yeah, I'd be freaked out.

Like I said it's really not that bad in ML. But you also have to realize that people will come at this thing from different perspective and your perspective alone isn't the only one that makes sense. 

As for Steins;Gate, I'd really rather not like to open that can of worms here but the problems run deeper than what you're thinking, it's not just about Okabe's reaction.

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It's pretty average, and as I said, most of his review is fair. As people have opinions. I take issue with the fact that he seems biased against the medium itself.  Eroge / Ecchi is a no go for him. Unrealistic, whacky characters are a no-go for him.  True, if you just judge Extra by itself, it's only a pretty decent read - but with Unlimited, I think it becomes above average. Now, we can't include Alternative, as it's separate obviously, but that one is truly Legendary.

 

I wouldn't have had issue with his review if he didn't mention that he dislikes unrealistic stories / stories with characters that do absurd things. That's part of the medium / Japanese media in general.

 

@decay There is no can of worms. It's a gag in Steins;gate. There's nothing deep meant about it.  You're taking what is meant to be a funny character and making it something it's not.

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6 minutes ago, Mkilbride said:

It's a gag in Steins;gate.

You don't think that this in itself is a problem? That a transgendered character is turned into a mere gag? And that this is the fate for the vast majority of transgendered characters in anime and VNs? That their sexuality is nothing more than a joke?

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17 minutes ago, Decay said:

I would have to fully replay this to properly remember all the details, but I remember a degree of insensitivity surrounding the handling of Mikoto's femininity. It's also not nearly as bad as the worst of the VN world has to offer, it was pretty tame all-told. I can still imagine someone who's not used to that kind of thing being weirded out by it, because it's handled fundamentally differently in Japanese media from how it's typically handled in western media.

That I can agree with. Takeru was basically dick to her, in the 'don't you even dare talk to me' type of way. Still - his behaviour was understandable and not 'transphobic'.


Anyway - I like reviews like that. Competent, detailed and good written. Even if I''m disagreeing with some things it was a good read. I ate MuvLuv very fast and was enjoying it, but flaws definitelly are here.

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1 minute ago, Decay said:

You don't think that this in itself is a problem? That a transgendered character is turned into a mere gag? And that this is the fate for the vast majority of transgendered characters in anime and VNs?

No, why would it be?  There's gag characters of every race, sexuality, gender, species, ect, what have you. There's clutzes, tsunderes, tons of stuff. Japan has a rich history of this stuff, look up Kabuki.  It's part of their culture.  I see nothing wrong with it, it's all done in the spirit of fun, not harm to intent.  Why can you have a gag character of everyone else, except a trans character? Why can't a trans character be a gag character?

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3 minutes ago, Mkilbride said:

No, why would it be?  There's gag characters of every race, sexuality, gender, species, ect, what have you. There's clutzes, tsunderes, tons of stuff. Japan has a rich history of this stuff, look up Kabuki.  It's part of their culture.  I see nothing wrong with it, it's all done in the spirit of fun, not harm to intent.  Why can you have a gag character of everyone else, except a trans character? Why can't a trans character be a gag character?

Because there's a difference between a trans character being the butt of a joke, and the trans character's identity itself being the joke.

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Just now, Decay said:

Because there's a difference between a trans character being the butt of a joke, and making the trans character's identity itself the joke.

No more different than a having a gay characters identity being the joke, or straight person, or as I said above,  all the archtypes of heroines in VNS.   If we're to live in a world where there are things we can and -can't- make fun of, I don't want to live in that world.

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8 minutes ago, Decay said:

You don't think that this in itself is a problem? That a transgendered character is turned into a mere gag? And that this is the fate for the vast majority of transgendered characters in anime and VNs? That their sexuality is nothing more than a joke?

Actually that was not a gag. It was much much deeper, and I loved it in S;G. Of course there was a scenes when Okabe was a complete criminally dumb and was
 

Spoiler

touching her crotch in searching for a genitals. -_-'

but Lukako story was really nice. About how her family fucked up with rasing him, how he was completly

Spoiler

distorted about his own sexuality, etc. Because, if I recall correctly, he didn't wanted to be a woman, he only thought that it would be easier to everybody else, if he became one

It wasn't just a gag, never seen it as one. But this is a discussion for another thread. And I do mean it, it could be really nice discussion.

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10 minutes ago, Mkilbride said:

If we're to live in a world where there are things we can and -can't- make fun of, I don't want to live in that world.

Hey, you can do whatever you want, it's a free world. But that doesn't mean there aren't things you shouldn't do, or things you'd be a dick for doing. 

11 minutes ago, Vorathiel said:

Actually that was not a gag. It was much much deeper

I actually agree, for the most part. But like you said, that's a discussion for another time. We should probably just end this whole derail here and now.

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7 minutes ago, Decay said:

Because there's a difference between a trans character being the butt of a joke, and making the trans character's identity itself being the joke.

When have people been so sensibly regarding jokes? Many medium make fun about basically everything. We have things like family guy and southpark which have many inappropriate jokes in their show which are quite offensive but that doesn't necessarily mean they have to take it down. Reminds about naughty dog removing donut drake from uncharted 4 because suddenly they think they are superior and all over the top, they clearly can't make fun of fat people it is offensive! Yeah right.

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  • 3 months later...

The "Director's Cut" patch is live.  You need your backerkit link if you want to download it, so either search through your email or send them an email if you deleted it or can't find it, or you can alternatively use this link if you remember what email you used for the campaign.  You can also buy it on Denpasoft (NSFW) if you didn't back the campaign.

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3 minutes ago, Zenophilious said:

The "Director's Cut" patch is live.  You need your backerkit link if you want to download it, so either search through your email or send them an email if you deleted it or can't find it, or you can alternatively use this link if you remember what email you used for the campaign.  You can also buy it on Denpasoft (NSFW) if you didn't back the campaign.

Freaking finally...

That didn't take long at all. Not even going to bother waiting for the uncut Alternative game, and will prolly just read the fan TL. They said in a tweet a while ago that they will make the patch for Alternative even LOWER priority than this patch was, because of the time it took. (This took over 4 months, so... yeah, alternative ETA 2020? ...)

I totally understand that porting taking time is out of their hands, but with them now straight up saying "we won't prioritize 18+ content", I'm not very interested in supporting their releases any more.

Luckily I do own the Japanese games, so I can just get the fan patches if those are still available. If not I guess I'll read it in moonrune.

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