RikiSanic Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 It's funny you bring that up, Rooke, because after I finished Alternative I remember thinking to myself how much better it could've been if Extra and Unlimited were actually engaging and not just 50 hours of exposition for the next game. And it's not like Alternative magically got better, either; plenty of the failings of the earlier installments made it into Alternative, too (the awfully glacial pacing, for one). People are free to think whatever they want obviously, but throwing out 10/10s so freely is weird to me. Imagine if creators had that mindset. How would you satisfy your creative vision if you weren't willing to identify your own mistakes and correct them? Maybe that's why so many visual novels don't seem to mind how much time they waste to get to the good stuff. Darklord Rooke 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Poltroon Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 19 minutes ago, RikiSanic said: It's funny you bring that up, Rooke, because after I finished Alternative I remember thinking to myself how much better it could've been if Extra and Unlimited were actually engaging and not just 50 hours of exposition for the next game. And it's not like Alternative magically got better, either; plenty of the failings of the earlier installments made it into Alternative, too (the awfully glacial pacing, for one). People are free to think whatever they want obviously, but throwing out 10/10s so freely is weird to me. Imagine if creators had that mindset. How would you satisfy your creative vision if you weren't willing to identify your own mistakes and correct them? Maybe that's why so many visual novels don't seem to mind how much time they waste to get to the good stuff. People value 10/10s differently. I, for instance, use them to rate things completely subjectively, basing the rating entirely on my enjoyment. This can mean that abominations with terrible pace like CLANNAD, most of which I thought was average, can still get a 10/10 from me based entirely on how much I enjoyed the latter parts of it. I'm sure there are others, however, who would try to examine the writing, the interface and many other aspects I couldn't give a rat's arse about. To surmise, a 10/10's actual value and meaning varies from person to person. To me, it was an "incomparably enjoyable experience"; to you, I'd guess it's something like "it was flawless", and to others it could be something different. RikiSanic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RikiSanic Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 Oh, I definitely agree. If something is entertaining enough, I typically rate it higher than it possibly deserves. I just tend to look at 10/10s as something that only happens under the absolutely right conditions. If I really, really like something but hesitate for a second to call it perfect, then it might get a 9 or 8 instead. They are just numbers that only slightly indicate how someone feels, though, so different people will have different philosophies on how to use them. I guess the main issue I have is with Rooke's example from that Steam review. Something doesn't become a 10 after a second viewing to me; it either is or it isn't. To call something perfect like that just seems so insincere. People should want more out of their "masterpieces", I guess is what I'm saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mkilbride Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 Yeah, I see alot of people recommending that they skip Extra entirely...and move to Unlimited, with a rare few saying to skip and just play through Alternative. Such a terrible idea. The moments that make you tear up and care about these characters happens in Extra. Technically, you could start with Unlimited and still gain a feeling for the characters, as their personalities are different, but you'd also be missing out on some references in Alternative and whatnot. I recommend people play Extra; but only one route, Sumika's or Meiyas. Both preferred - everyone elses routes are extra, but I find at the very least, Sumika's route is important to not skip, while Meiyas a close second. If / when I re-read Extra, I won't be doing the other Heroines routes, even though I remember finding them not terrible, just generic. But so many moments in Unlimited & Alternative would foster NO emotion if you hadn't read at least SOME of Extra. I blame the confusing as fuck naming scheme. "Extra" makes it sound like you don't need to read it, as if it's a fluff piece. |||||| The heck is Image Language? * Oh I see. Huh. That's unique. ||||||| I also find it odd there's not a warning about Muv Luv Unlimited. I figured there would be, like if I tried to start it, a pop up would be like "Warning: Muv Luv Unlimited is intended to be read after Muv Luv Extra" or something. || Any controller support?? Trying to get my DS4 controller to work with it...works with lots of other VNs and honestly been enjoying that in games alot lately. I find it easier on my wrists when reading. | Also, when is Alternative expected to be released? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirei Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 Hello! @MkilbrideMight be easier to get those burning Q's answered at the official forums or even the Steam community Just a thought! Altnerative project release date should be coming soon and will take a while. As for the patch, we would rather not provide a date when we can't meet it at the moment. Sekai Project doesn't put their patches out at the same time as their initial release to my knowledge (at the moment), so we ask for some patience in the matter as well. Sorry to see that many people feel that the new version of the game is not up to their standards/or "ruined" the experience. Feel free to drop a line on the official forums: http://community.muvluv.moe/index.php?/topic/566-muv-luv-feedback/#comment-6895 And we will try and see what we can do to make your experience better in the future. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mkilbride Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 6 minutes ago, Hirei said: Hello! @MkilbrideMight be easier to get those burning Q's answered at the official forums or even the Steam community Just a thought! Altnerative project release date should be coming soon and will take a while. As for the patch, we would rather not provide a date when we can't meet it at the moment. Sekai Project doesn't put their patches out at the same time as their initial release to my knowledge (at the moment), so we ask for some patience in the matter as well. Sorry to see that many people feel that the new version of the game is not up to their standards/or "ruined" the experience. Feel free to drop a line on the official forums: http://community.muvluv.moe/index.php?/topic/566-muv-luv-feedback/#comment-6895 And we will try and see what we can do to make your experience better in the future. Thank you! Is this the Official forum? If so, I think I know why it's dead. The security questions. "Name a Muv Luv spinoff that has an anime adaption" "Muv Luv Total Eclipse" - Wrong. "Muv-Luv Total Eclipse" - Wrong. You see where I'm going? What if new fans want to sign up and ask questions? IF someone who has seen this stuff can't answer the questions due to the vagueness...well...yeah. "Who is the creator of Muv Luv" "Age" - Wrong. Do I need the author? See, these questions are way to vague. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirei Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 Sadly the team can't be everywhere at once and I was more or less implying that your Q's might have a better chance of being answered at these places. I'm very sorry if you misunderstood what I was trying to say with the forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorathiel Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 I don't think that this suggestion was offensive, but I agree with Mkilbride - these questions are like, super hard. I managed to register there, but someone new to series will never be able to answer those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirei Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 Yeah, I agree that the security questions are too specific. We'll look into changing some of them around as a result of the suggestion. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dergonu Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 Quote As for the patch, we would rather not provide a date when we can't meet it at the moment. Sekai Project doesn't put their patches out at the same time as their initial release to my knowledge (at the moment), so we ask for some patience in the matter as well. Well, great. Sekai Project's way of handling all ages / 18+ patches has become an example that makes other companies work in the same manner... Swell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Poltroon Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 10 minutes ago, Dergonu said: Well, great. Sekai Project's way of handling all ages / 18+ patches has become an example that makes other companies work in the same manner... Swell. Hmm... I'll ask this: On a personal level, would you prefer if the all ages version got held back in order to be released simultaneously with the 18+ version? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dergonu Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 Just now, Tiagofvarela said: Hmm... I'll ask this: On a personal level, would you prefer if the all ages version got held back in order to be released simultaneously with the 18+ version? Yes, I feel that would be more fair, as the game is originally an ergoe, meaning the 18+ content should at the very least have the same priority as the all ages release. Getting out the all ages first, the coming out with the patch is a backwards way of handling eroge releases. Hanny 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decay Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 Really, Sekai provides their 18+ patches alongside the actual release almost all of the time. The only case where I don't believe this happens is with Grisaia. 1 minute ago, Dergonu said: Yes, I feel that would be more fair, as the game is originally an ergoe, meaning the 18+ content should at the very least have the same priority as the all ages release. Getting out the all ages first, the coming out with the patch is a backwards way of handling eroge releases. Fair for who? Let people get access to the versions as they're ready I say, that's the most fair approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dergonu Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 10 hours ago, Decay said: Fair for who? Let people get access to the versions as they're ready I say, that's the most fair approach. EDIT: For this and all the other posts that I made below, I was a little out of it. It came out a bit wrong, and I should not have worded them like this. I won't delete it, but just keep that in mind when reading my ... silly rants. Well that logic is assuming that 18+ content automatically gets cut, then put back in, like with this game and Grisaia. That means the process has already gone in the wrong direction. This is originally a game WITH the 18+ content, not without it. If they went ahead and just kept it in there, progress on the 18+ patch would not have to be done after an all ages version has been prepared. For games like Eden* such an approach is fine, as the 18+ content came later, after the original all ages game releasaed. But for eroge like Muv-Luv, it is quite strange to me that the all-ages version gets priority over the game in it's original version. People who want the game like it was originally intended have to wait for that version, and that is totally backwards in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirei Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 15 minutes ago, Decay said: Really, Sekai provides their 18+ patches alongside the actual release almost all of the time. The only case where I don't believe this happens is with Grisaia. Fair for who? Let people get access to the versions as they're ready I say, that's the most fair approach. Thanks for the clarification! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dergonu Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 EDIT: For this and all the other posts that I made below, I was a little out of it. It came out a bit wrong, and I should not have worded them like this. I won't delete it, but just keep that in mind when reading my ... silly rants. Considering the fact that their admin is active both here and on their own forum, yet any mention of an 18+ patch is dodged, I'd say my effort in trying to get any sort of ETA is futile. To clarify a bit what I meant with my previous statement: As the situation is now, of course it would be unfair in general to hold the all ages verison back. But, I think that they should have handled the whole release differently to begin with. Don't start with the all ages version being produced separately from the game with H content intact; work on it at the same time. (Or put the focus on the 18+ version, as that is the way the game is orginally intended.) For example, when Grisaia got translated, it was instantly announced that the vita version (the one they are translating) and the PC version runs on different engines and because of that, getting the 18+ content into the PC version will take time, something they can't really do anything about. Because of this, their separate all ages and 18+ release makes sense. For all we know, something similar could be preventing them here too, but the lack of information is extremely vexing. The most annoying thing is when it's obvious that your comments are being read, and yet the issue is being completely avoided. One just has to ask, why? ... (Any actual explanation would leave most fans completly satisfied. It's the not knowing at all that just spites more restlessness.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Poltroon Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 18 minutes ago, Dergonu said: To clarify a bit what I meant with my previous statement: As the situation is now, of course it would be unfair in general to hold the all ages verison back. But, I think that they should have handled the whole release differently to begin with. Don't start with the all ages version being produced separately from the game with H content intact; work on it at the same time. (Or put the focus on the 18+ version, as that is the way the game is orginally intended.) The way I see it, the "inferior", cut version has less content. It is only natural, then, that it should get finished first, no? At that point in time it would therefore be useless to hold it back. Now then, as I am not on par with the situation, I'll refrain from making further comments, but I remain curious: Are the all-ages version and 18+ version on different engines or some such? I don't understand what you meant with "don't start with the all-ages version being produced separately from the game with H content intact;". Theoretically, by working on the all-ages version, you'd be working on the 18+ version, as they are one and the same, except that the all ages version is merely a portion -- although a portion that makes up the majority -- of the 18+ version; meaning it would be finished first. Exceptions are cases where an all-ages version contains differing story content so as to compensate. I do not believe this is the case here, although I may be mistaken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dergonu Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 9 hours ago, Tiagofvarela said: The way I see it, the "inferior", cut version has less content. It is only natural, then, that it should get finished first, no? At that point in time it would therefore be useless to hold it back. Now then, as I am not on par with the situation, I'll refrain from making further comments, but I remain curious: Are the all-ages version and 18+ version on different engines or some such? I don't understand what you meant with "don't start with the all-ages version being produced separately from the game with H content intact;". Theoretically, by working on the all-ages version, you'd be working on the 18+ version, as they are one and the same, except that the all ages version is merely a portion -- although a portion that makes up the majority -- of the 18+ version; meaning it would be finished first. Exceptions are cases where an all-ages version contains differing story content so as to compensate. I do not believe this is the case here, although I may be mistaken. EDIT: For this and all the other posts that I made below, I was a little out of it. It came out a bit wrong, and I should not have worded them like this. I won't delete it, but just keep that in mind when reading my ... silly rants. Yes, my point is that there is no logical reason for the two versions to be worked on at different times, unless they run on different engines, like with Grisaia. And since they have not given us any information on this, it's really hard to say what is going on. (On the note of the version with less content being finished first, having worked on H-scenes myself I can say that although they are boring to work on, they are very easy to finish, and that should not set them back much time at all, even if there is a lot of H. And I don't think that is the case here.) Logically, you should just translate and release the game in one go, and if you do that, both versions should be done simultaneously. However, this is not the case here, and the patch is being treated as a separate entity. (And is delayed for some reason.) Why? We haven't heard anything on it, so we just don't know. We don't know if they simply wanted to get an all ages version made for steam quickly first, just to increase sales, or if there is an actual problem with making an 18+ version function well. (As it currently stands, I'm thinking the first option is very likely.) The lack of information is quite annoying, and that is the root of the frustration here. (It is currently 2AM, and I haven't slept in over 24 hours, so there is a chance my posts are completely nonsensical. If that is the case, I have to apologize) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorathiel Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Derg, you would really got as far as to say that you're really frustrated about this? From what I've seen on twitter, reddit, here, or even steam, most of people are waiting patiently. And from what I understand about all this - they we're focusing on steam release fro mthe very begining, so they made it as quickly as possible. Degica and localization team did not cut anything out by themselves, they worked on what ixtl/age provided to them (cropped CGs, cut 'Livin da vida loca' rip off song, etc). H scenes will come around physical copies. Making a working patch it's maybe an easy job, but maybe it's not. From what I heard rUPG engine is really hard to work with. So this patch will probably take some time. Next thing - Degica has limited amount of people working form them. So, they made a working, polished Steam version first, and after that they will made h scenes. No point in waiting with release of Steam version till 18+ will be finished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dergonu Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 EDIT: For this and all the other posts that I made below, I was a little out of it. It came out a bit wrong, and I should not have worded them like this. I won't delete it, but just keep that in mind when reading my ... silly rants. Yes, I don't like it when content that is originally there gets either removed or delayed. It's just the principle; it's not like the actual content means that much to me. (Of course, it does have some value in my opinion.) In this case though, the main frustration is towards the lack of official responses. If it is the engiene being difficult, then that's fine. They just have to say it. But they are openly dodging these questions, and have been doing that since the release date. (Actually, the 18+ patch thread on their forum was made before the release.) All I want to know is what is going on. It's not like I'm here flipping tables, but it is something that I would like to clearify, for me and other fans who wants to play the game the way it was originally intended. Alll they have to do is reply once to their own thread, but they won't even do that. That is a bit annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorathiel Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Also - worth reading. Short article about changes.https://aaltomies.wordpress.com/2016/07/18/lets-talk-about-muv-luvs-changes/ Quote Before we go on, let’s re-iterate how the companies are related to each other. Degica is the company localising, they are in charge of translation and publishing, while ixtl is the rights holder and makes the final decisions what’s in and what’s out. (...)The most clear cut changes are the new songs in the soundtrack, and music is almost always the hardest thing to license when it comes to Japanese products, especially TV-shows and movies. (...) This issue extend to Muv-Luv Alternative. One of its more iconic songs, Assault Landing, is similarly a direct homage to Basil Poledouris’ Kledanthu Drop from Starship Troopers. Then you have that pastiche of Buster Machine March and the other examples. You should be half-expecting their removal for the exact same reason. I very much hope they will not get axe, cause, as opossed to Livin' Da vida MuvLuv, they're awesome. Quote I never felt strongly for Ayamine was because the English subtitles didn’t really reflect the Japanese, giving her a slightly but significantly different impression what sort of person she was. Now I'm affraid D; Ayamine was my best gurl in Extra, I loved her. I hope this will enhance her character, and not make her somebody I would not recognize. Quote As for the cropped CGs (...) In addition, depending how the CG is stored in the files, ixtl shouldn’t have much problems showcasing the whole CG in the Gallery mode. ....And many more interesting things in the article. Fred the Barber 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinterfuryZX Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 This is a PS3 backport, the eroscene patch will require extensive amount of work to get it correctly work. Suzu Fanatic and Hirei 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dergonu Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 8 hours ago, WinterfuryZX said: This is a PS3 backport, the eroscene patch will require extensive amount of work to get it correctly work. That would indeed explain why more work is required for the 18+ version. (And makes it completely comparable to the Grisaia situation.) Really hope this is the reason why it is delayed. EDIT: No it's a perfectly understandable way of handling it, silly past me. (It would be nice to hear it from them, but that is apperantly not an option.) They really need to work on their communication skills. They are very active about responding to certain issues, but openly ignore others. That's a rather strange attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suffolk Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 6 minutes ago, Dergonu said: (It would be nice to hear it from them, but that is apperantly not an option.) They really need to work on their communication skills. They are very active about responding to certain issues, but openly ignore others. That's a rather strange attitude. If Degica aren't responding to a certain issue it is likely because they are probably in the dark themselves with regards to that certain thing, and don't want to say anything that later turns out to be wrong. Degica cannot comment on anything until they hear it from ixtl, and if ixtl either don't consider it a priority or are just being awkward then there's not a lot that can be done, except chase them up for answers (which I guarantee you, is happening). Text-wise, all of the 18+ content is translated, edited and ready to go, I can tell you that much. The ball is very much in ixtl's court with regards to that, and there is little the localisation team or Degica can do to expedite the process beyond informing ixtl of the high demand for the patch (again, this is happening). At the end of the day, ixtl are the official handlers of the Muv-Luv brand, and they will have the final say on things like this. Every effort has been made on the English side of things to make this as smooth as possible, and the patch will be released as soon as it can be. I can understand the frustration you're feeling - but everything that can be done, is being done, so sitting tight is all you can do, or try to enjoy all of the game's released content as best you can. Dergonu, Vorathiel and Hirei 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirei Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 We'll be getting you all information when we have clearance to. We aren't ignoring the issue. We have to follow protocol as @Suffolk has implied. That would indeed explain why more work is required for the 18+ version. (And makes it completely comparable to the Grisaia situation.) Really hope this is the reason why it is delayed. (It would be nice to hear it from them, but that is apperantly not an option.) They really need to work on their communication skills. They are very active about responding to certain issues, but openly ignore others. That's a rather strange attitude. I feel like the communication comment by @Dergonu was a bit of a stretch though. We try our best to stay ontop of things with what staffers we have. Dergonu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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