What makes Grisaia no Kajitsu so great?

[Down]

I wouldn't call that science or pseudo-science but rather mysticism/magic. It's kinda light, like what Key does sometimes, but it's still that.

 

The question of what is okay or not in fiction is kinda tricky (suspension of disbelief etc) and sadly varies from people to people... in my opinion it's bad in Michiru's route because it comes out of nowhere and is kinda bullshitty, but also because the story would have been much more interesting with a different explanation imo. It's an easy way out that's too big to swallow.

[Zenophilious]

Eh, I guess, but it's been labeled pseudoscience because several "scientists" have claimed to be able to prove that it's scientifically possible without any methods that can be successfully replicated.  The whole concept of cellular and body memory is a hypothesis that will most likely always be impossible to prove because, lets face it, the idea is ridiculous.  One of the main supporters of the theory chopped up a bunch of worms and fed them to other worms, and immediately concluded that the reason behind their faster maze solving time was because of body/cellular memory.

 

I can usually handle suspension of disbelief in less strange situations, but Michiru's route kinda pushed past what I was willing to accept into the absurd.  If the rest of the novel had been like that, I most likely would have been able to tolerate it, but the other routes don't delve into mysticism, as you put it, Down, so I just couldn't swallow it.  Maybe in something like Hoshimemo, but not Kajitsu.

[TexasDice]

Unrealism isn't the right thought here, it's being unbelievable. Something this weird and alien needs to be setup properly, or it will come out of nowhere, confuse and break immersion. Especially considering how it's an anomaly limited to a single route.

 

Compare it to the following scenario: You're watching a Liam Neeson revenge-movie about him trying to free his daughter from a bunch of thugs in a war-torn country. And halfway through the movie, Dr. Frankenstein appears and starts to resurrect corpses. 

[starlessn1ght]

Anyway, I find it rather amusing that reading Michiru's route makes you think that Kajitsu is a good VN.  

 

Eh... Not really... I really liked her route, but if I would rate it I would give it a 7.6 or something close to that. Makina's would be 6 and Yumiko's 5. One okay-but-a-little-bad route (Yumiko's), one yeah-good route (Makina's) and a-quite-above-good route (Michiru's) doesn't make Grisaia good, because I still have to read the other two.

 

Comparing it to Rewrite, it is almost already worse than it. All Rewrite routes (except Terra) were at least, impressive imo. There was the awesomest of the awesomes, Lucia's route, the very touching and amazing Shizuru's route, the interesting and epic Akane's route, the action-packed and cool Chihaya's route and the dark, kinda meh, but still impressive Kotori's route. All of them were high quality and all gave useful information about the main plot. Next in Grisaia I'm going to read will be Amane's route. 

[Rose]

It is pseudoscience in real life. But in Grisaia, it was real science. You just have to close your eyes to reality while reading it.

 

Really small spoilers from Meikyuu, not even from the plot, just about the specific issue here:

 

It was so bad that it got changed on the sequels. The routes tried to be as believable as possible given the characters' abilities and all that, but Michiru simply did not fit into it.

[starlessn1ght]

Unrealism isn't the right thought here, it's being unbelievable. Something this weird and alien needs to be setup properly, or it will come out of nowhere, confuse and break immersion. Especially considering how it's an anomaly limited to a single route.

 

Compare it to the following scenario: You're watching a Liam Neeson revenge-movie about him trying to free his daughter from a bunch of thugs in a war-torn country. And halfway through the movie, Dr. Frankenstein appears and starts to resurrect corpses. 

 

Um... Thinking about it, yeah... You have a point. But it still didn't feel like that for me, and I didn't have any problems with it. I still really liked her route.

[Clephas]

One thing that you have to keep in mind with Michiru's setting idea is

that the idea of heart transplant patients receiving influence from the heart's owner has neither been proven or shown as a hoax, because there isn't a large enough sample in existence to provide a solid scientific basis for anything at all. Heart transplants are rare because they have to be carried out within hours of the death of the donor, as opposed to kidneys, which can be preserved for a longer period of time. The simple unlikelihood of a match, combined with a lack of donors, makes it impossible to perform a proper wide-ranging scientific study in the first place.

[Chuee]

The idea that you can transfer a person's being to another person's body, and share it, by anything at all is fairly pseudo-scientific to begin with. 

[storyteller]

Apparently I am better at willing suspension of disbelief than most everyone because I had no problem with Michiru's set-up.

I'm also apparently not as attentive a reader, cuz I don't remember it being retconned in Meikyuu.

(If the retcon is in the after stories, then I wouldn't be surprised I missed it, seeing as I pretty much skipped those).

 

I just did a cursory search of the matter in Japanese and found 0 discussion on it.

Heck, I barely see anyone that has a problem with her initial set-up in the first place.

[Nightmare799]

Apparently I am better at willing suspension of disbelief than most everyone because I had no problem with Michiru's set-up.

I'm also apparently not as attentive a reader, cuz I don't remember it being retconned in Meikyuu.

(If the retcon is in the after stories, then I wouldn't be surprised I missed it, seeing as I pretty much skipped those).

 

I just did a cursory search of the matter in Japanese and found 0 discussion on it.

Heck, I barely see anyone that has a problem with her initial set-up in the first place.

 

Indeed, I dont get why are people so worked up over that. So what? It doesnt matter that it is a fiction based on reality, the medium in question is still fiction.

[Soulless Watcher]

Indeed, I dont get why are people so worked up over that. So what? It doesnt matter that it is a fiction based on reality, the medium in question is still fiction.

I get the feeling that this whole debacle is less about people having a specific problems with the story of grisaia, but more about people being annoyed that some people like this vn alot more than vn x which is their personal favorite, so they nitpick it to death, kinda like me in anime with sao. However, I doubt people are really that petty.... I just assume the worse in people so I can be pleasently surprised when it isn't the case...... on those rare occasions....... when there is a blue moon..... it has happened before!

[Clephas]

The basic concept is the same as

genetic memory. Basically, the idea is that our personalities are at least partially influenced by our genetic makeup and some of our memories might be stored within our cells. To an extent, this is considered to be a definite possibility with many insects and certain animals (cats and dogs in particular).

Personally, the cat idea doesn't surprise me, since all my cats knew 'can means food' before I ever even thought of giving them anything other than dry food...  I never once gave them wet food, but they always came running when I opened a can, anyway.  I had them from birth, too.  lol

 

Edit: nonetheless, I do find the heart patient concept to be a bit hard to believe out of hand. Nonetheless, what do you expect from fiction? From my perspective, it is just an expansion of an existing idea and thus doesn't require much in the way of a suspension of disbelief.

[nohman]

Makina and Michiru spoilers:

Funnily enough, I didn't really find the stuff in Michiru's route even that jarring as far as suspending my disbelief, but the whole devil arm thing that gets presented in Makina's route ended up rubbing me the wrong way.  Then again, Michiru was the last route that I read so I was pretty desensitized already by the other silly things in GnK, plus my impression of the route was tainted from the beginning since I knew going in the reason for her split personality was largely thought to be kinda stupid.

[Down]

The basic concept is the same as

genetic memory. Basically, the idea is that our personalities are at least partially influenced by our genetic makeup and some of our memories might be stored within our cells. To an extent, this is considered to be a definite possibility with many insects and certain animals (cats and dogs in particular).

Personally, the cat idea doesn't surprise me, since all my cats knew 'can means food' before I ever even thought of giving them anything other than dry food...  I never once gave them wet food, but they always came running when I opened a can, anyway.  I had them from birth, too.  lol

 

Edit: nonetheless, I do find the heart patient concept to be a bit hard to believe out of hand. Nonetheless, what do you expect from fiction? From my perspective, it is just an expansion of an existing idea and thus doesn't require much in the way of a suspension of disbelief.

Well yeah but genetic memory doesn't work that way.

Genetic memory is transmitted from a parent to a child. In the case of

a heart transplant, the organ only contains already specialised cells and no stem cells at all, which means they can't express their genome. The genetic information is still in the cell but it's not usable.

 

Regardless of reality, it doesn't really matter. I just think it's not a very interesting plot device at all, and the degree to which I'm ready to accept a plot device varies as a function of how useful it is to the narration.

[LiquidShu]

 

I wonder why it's so popular...

Michiru.

[storyteller]

I'm pretty sure most of us understand how genetic memory works.

Do I believe this is going to ever happen irl? No.

Am I going to nitpick it in a fictional work? No.

I'm sure you don't expect a girl in super-fiber assault-mode maid outfit and gas mask armed with kitchen knives to charges into a group of trained mercenaries armed with guns irl, either.

The plot device isn't that uncommon either. Just look at Area no Kishi.

[Nightmare799]

I get the feeling that this whole debacle is less about people having a specific problems with the story of grisaia, but more about people being annoyed that some people like this vn alot more than vn x which is their personal favorite, so they nitpick it to death, kinda like me in anime with sao. However, I doubt people are really that petty.... I just assume the worse in people so I can be pleasently surprised when it isn't the case...... on those rare occasions....... when there is a blue moon..... it has happened before!

 

Well to be fair, SAO really got shitty fast. first arc was bearable, but the rest of SAO material was utter crap. Really, his anime had incredible premise and the producers managed to completely mess it up.

 

Steins gate is imo how you do a VN/Anime.

[Vokoca]

Makina and Michiru spoilers:

Funnily enough, I didn't really find the stuff in Michiru's route even that jarring as far as suspending my disbelief, but the whole devil arm thing that gets presented in Makina's route ended up rubbing me the wrong way.  Then again, Michiru was the last route that I read so I was pretty desensitized already by the other silly things in GnK, plus my impression of the route was tainted from the beginning since I knew going in the reason for her split personality was largely thought to be kinda stupid.

Also Makina and Michiru spoilers:

It was a long time since I read it, so I might be remembering things wrong, but wasn't that just Yuuji's way of dealing with things? In other words, just a delusion, a form of escapism if you will? It was "just" a psychological problem, I don't see what was so unbelievable about it - unless I'm forgetting some details of course, which is very much possible.

 

Well, it was more believable that transplanting entire personalities and memories with just a heart, anyway.

[Soulless Watcher]

 I'm to fucking lazy to look and see if anyone put some articles in previous posts, but just in case not here is some interesting reads I found on the subject of personality rewrite with organ transplants.

 

"Cellular Memory theory"

http://www.medicaldaily.com/can-organ-transplant-change-recipients-personality-cell-memory-theory-affirms-yes-247498

 

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/salud/esp_salud25.htm

 

http://skepdic.com/cellular.html

 

Some random articles about people acting like donor....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1237998/Heart-transplant-patient-gets-craving-food-eaten-organ-donor.html

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-533830/My-personality-changed-kidney-transplant--I-started-read-Jane-Austen-Dostoevsky-instead-celebrity-trash.html

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-08-30-1180586906_x.htm (This one is a bit disturbing)

 

Well anyway my point being that there is some precedent irl for the Michiru route, yes it is based on stories and theories that havn't been researched fully.... but at the very least I find it not horribly much more of a stretch than let's say....

an entire schoolbus of children having to resort to canniblism and starve because of the perfect storm of geology in a first world country or "monochrome memorization" which was completely BSed up for story purposes, but people buy into it because it is close enough to how photographic memory is depicted in popular culture.

[Nightmare799]

 I'm to fucking lazy to look and see if anyone put some articles in previous posts, but just in case not here is some interesting reads I found on the subject of personality rewrite with organ transplants.

 

"Cellular Memory theory"

http://www.medicaldaily.com/can-organ-transplant-change-recipients-personality-cell-memory-theory-affirms-yes-247498

 

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/salud/esp_salud25.htm

 

http://skepdic.com/cellular.html

 

Some random articles about people acting like donor....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1237998/Heart-transplant-patient-gets-craving-food-eaten-organ-donor.html

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-533830/My-personality-changed-kidney-transplant--I-started-read-Jane-Austen-Dostoevsky-instead-celebrity-trash.html

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-08-30-1180586906_x.htm (This one is a bit disturbing)

 

Well anyway my point being that there is some precedent irl for the Michiru route, yes it is based on stories and theories that havn't been researched fully.... but at the very least I find it not horribly much more of a stretch than let's say....

an entire schoolbus of children having to resort to canniblism and starve because of the perfect storm of geology in a first world country or "monochrome memorization" which was completely BSed up for story purposes, but people buy into it because it is close enough to how photographic memory is depicted in popular culture.

 

I have never seen any disclaimer of this game depicting it as nothing but reality.

This VN is a work of fiction. I dont even see the reason some people are discussing its plausibility when it is absolutely obvious story this game has absolutely no ties to any real life event ever.

 

Besides, the baseball club trip accident was an incredibly awful stroke of bad luck. You will rarely ever encounter a scenario like that in real life, but it is plausible when you consider how remote was the area they got stuck in.

[storyteller]

@angelic howl

You'd be surprised, but those sorts of things do actually happen nowadays.

I know one of my parents' old college friends and his family fell off a cliff or something in Yellow Stone? Or was it Yosemite, I can't remember. One of them national parks. It first took a while for people to realize they were missing, then it took days looking for them.

There are also other works that reference the same sorts of events, such as the manga Limit

[starlessn1ght]

Well to be fair, SAO really got shitty fast. first arc was bearable, but the rest of SAO material was utter crap. Really, his anime had incredible premise and the producers managed to completely mess it up.

 

Steins gate is imo how you do a VN/Anime.

 

To be fair, I really like S;G, but SAO is much better imo. SAO is imo how you do a real anime. It's the greatest anime I've watched.

[Yuuko]

To be fair, I really like S;G, but SAO is much better imo. SAO is imo how you do a real anime. It's the greatest anime I've watched.

I... I d-d-d... Whatever...

[Soulless Watcher]

To be fair, I really like S;G, but SAO is much better imo. SAO is imo how you do a real anime. It's the greatest anime I've watched.

Here we go into the dangerously off topic area, I would love to discuss how much I don't enjoy SAO.... however that would be very off the subject matter at hand. As the original poster I would think you of all people would realize this.

[nohman]

Also Makina and Michiru spoilers:

It was a long time since I read it, so I might be remembering things wrong, but wasn't that just Yuuji's way of dealing with things? In other words, just a delusion, a form of escapism if you will? It was "just" a psychological problem, I don't see what was so unbelievable about it - unless I'm forgetting some details of course, which is very much possible.

 

Well, it was more believable that transplanting entire personalities and memories with just a heart, anyway.

 

It's (relatively) been awhile for me too, but I think you're probably right. My own first thought was it had to do with Yuuji's psychopathic tendencies, but it was vague enough (maybe it wasn't and I was just being thick) that it kinda felt like it could play into some larger conspiracy to be unveiled in the other games. At the time it felt off and took me out of it (having read only Yumiko and Sachi before it), but in hindsight after finishing the game and having knowledge of some of the events in the other two, it seems strange I found it so jarring at the time.