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New "Loli/Shota" Policy & Details


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Jokes aside, If I am to be honest about this whole issue, it's not even about lolicon, nor rule changes. It's about the staff board failing to react appropriately in the most demanding moment. Back then, when the thread appeared, mods should simply change the thread's name and adjust the wording; instead they let it fly like that. This whole thing would never happen otherwise and it's precisely this thing that bugs me and does not even get mentioned anywhere.

 

It's not the end of the world, either. As Tay stated, don't sexualize the lolis, don't bring up the topic of pedophilia, regardless whether it's a joke or not. You're free to talk about lolis/shotas as long as you keep it civil and go along with the common sense, which is, again: DON'T POST LOLI PICS WITH SEXUAL CONTENT.

 

I'm against censorship of any kind and as this might come as a surprise, I'm actually quite into lolis as well. I just never felt a need to post in any of the threads, or share my thoughts; it does not mean I'm entirely fond of actual changes, but not in a single way they restrict people from doing whatever they did. And yes, I don't think this will actually affect the vast majority of Fuwanovel's userbase in any way  ̄ー ̄

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Jokes aside, If I am to be honest about this whole issue, it's not even about lolicon, nor rule changes. It's about the staff board failing to react appropriately in the most demanding moment. Back then, when the thread appeared, mods should simply change the thread's name and adjust the wording; instead they let it fly like that. This whole thing would never happen otherwise and it's precisely this thing that bugs me and does not even get mentioned anywhere.

 

It's not the end of the world, either. As Tay stated, don't sexualize the lolis, don't bring up the topic of pedophilia, regardless whether it's a joke or not. You're free to talk about lolis/shotas as long as you keep it civil and go along with the common sense, which is, again: DON'T POST LOLI PICS WITH SEXUAL CONTENT.

Criticism of staff is usually done in private and directly to them. 

 

Or on Rens TS where we can berate them and insult them with no repercussions. 

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Let me put it this way.  Talk of VN lolis, basic normal pictures are fine. 

 

However, someone posted "Dinner Time" and then pictures of lolis in compromising positions. 

 

This is not O.K.  I don't know if it ever was, but definitely not anymore. 

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Youre so fucking full of yourself. Careful not to go to jail Steve for child pornography. As for me, I'd rather not go to jail and be labeled a sex offender for browsing Fuwanovel. Extreme example, I know, but users have to be protected here.

 

You already got us in trouble once for this sort of thing. 

 

Maybe its not problem with me nor you, but the country you live in, the article in my first post is a prime example. But lets not get into politics :)

 

 

Hmm, what are the loli laws in CZ anyway?

 

There are none but hey, our galleries are filled with much more 3d looking naked children and its fine xD So I guess people here understand that art is art, videogames are videogames and can be part of art and freedom of speech is kinda important (after we didn't have it for like half a century). So I guess its not as terrible country as I think it is, but still Luchland seems much better xD

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Maybe its not problem with me nor you, but the country you live in, the article in my first post is a prime example. But hey, lets not get into politics :)

 

 

 

There are none but hey, our galleries are filled with much more 3d looking naked children and its fine xD So I guess people here understand that art is art, videogames are videogames and can be part of art and freedom of speech is kinda important (after we didn't have it for like half a century). So I guess its not as terrible country as I think it is, but still Luchland seems much better xD

Until we are influential enough to change laws Steve, we must follow them. Get over it. 

 

Fuwanovel is following the law. Hell, Tay had to get a lawyer to protect himself from stuff on the site. 

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In response to Steve's objections, and him claiming a double standard: try to post a thread about how awful black people are, or that maybe Hitler was right all along, or some other similar kind of provocative and offensive discussion, and see how quickly mods swoop down on you. This is a private forum and you have never been entitled to totally free speech here. The rules on the forum have the intent of fostering a community where anyone can feel like they can post comfortably, and they are also now interested in protecting themselves from possible legal action, and this policy change is just another extension of this. This is just another off-limits topic like several others. You have not objected to those other topics being off-limits in the past, but now that a topic that is heavily pertinent to your interests is becoming off-limits, you take umbrage. It is you who is holding the double standard, you are only not okay with a banned topic of discussion if it is something you're personally interested in. The site's rules remain consistent in its primary interests.

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Until we are influential enough to change laws Steve, we must follow them. Get over it. 

 

Fuwanovel is following the law. Hell, Tay had to get a lawyer to protect himself from stuff on the site. 

 

Yeah yeah, but I don't think laws in the US forbids the discussion. Images sure but as I said those were banned ages ago right after I left and there was nobody to defend the ban.

 

But for text, there are still books about real child sex sold in the US so it must be fine. 2d girls are kinda like different species so its even more distant but I guess when having the discussions like we did about which H scene was good from oniichan sharing, it can come out sounding like its a 3d girl if someone reads it out of context... which is still not banned in the US as far as I know.

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Yeah yeah, but I don't think laws in the US forbids the discussion. Images sure but as I said those were banned ages ago right after I left and there was nobody to defend the ban.

 

But for text, there are still books about real child sex sold in the US so it must be fine. 2d girls are kinda like different species so its even more distant but I guess when having the discussions like we did about which H scene was good from oniichan sharing, it can come out sounding like its a 3d girl if someone reads it out of context... which is still not banned in the US as far as I know.

The USA isn't the only nation in the world, and not everyone is from the US here. We have to keep other cultures in mind to keep this site open. Go back to Mofu and quit stirring the pot here. You helped form a place for yourself 

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@Steve, @Solidbatman -- Alright guys, give it a rest. These are repeats of earlier, more fiery and spectacular wars. This thread is getting derailed.

 

--------

 

It's pretty difficult to see if people's questions have been answered. Who's still confused about what?

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I guess people here understand that art is art, videogames are videogames and can be part of art and freedom of speech is kinda important (after we didn't have it for like half a century). So I guess its not as terrible country as I think it is, but still Luchland seems much better xD

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Yeah yeah, but I don't think laws in the US forbids the discussion. Images sure but as I said those were banned ages ago right after I left and there was nobody to defend the ban.

 

But for text, there are still books about real child sex sold in the US so it must be fine. 2d girls are kinda like different species so its even more distant but I guess when having the discussions like we did about which H scene was good from oniichan sharing, it can come out sounding like its a 3d girl if someone reads it out of context... which is still not banned in the US as far as I know.

But discussion isn't banned. You can discuss HoshiMemo as much as you want, you just can't talk about how you want to bang x or y because discussions about pure porn should be better left in private chats with friends.

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I can understand banning things that fall under CP. However I request less vague limits, please compare to vndb for example:

vndb image policy of what is NSFW .

I know my rantings about details will be dismissed by people stating "common sense is enough", but I think a clear distinction is better in the length.

Loli/Shota rule: It's teh same as normal porn rules (no sex acts, genitals, etc.) plus:  If an image is focused on, accentuates, or exaggerates a character's nipples, vulva, or penis (with or without clothing) or positions them sensually (body position, wet panties, erection, nearly naked, etc.)

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In response to Steve's objections, and him claiming a double standard: try to post a thread about how awful black people are, or that maybe Hitler was right all along, or some other similar kind of provocative and offensive discussion, and see how quickly mods swoop down on you.

 

But that's not what this is at all, games depicting racism are exactly that, they are just depicting racism not encouraging it nor fighting against it, they just depict it just like it happens in the world. Same way games can depict wars just like they happen, people murdering each other just like it happens. It doesn't mean you do those things.

Besides comparing a hate towards a specific race or group of people to a consensual love that usually happens in the regular moege is not a good thing. Sure encouragement of rape and such is banned but that already is banned as well even while I was around. But this really is comparing hate with love.

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  • If you want to discuss a “loli” character or route in a visual novel, you can do so in the VN boards with the caveat that crude, inflammatory, provocative or aggressive posts will be grounds for a topic’s deletion, without warning
  • Outside the realm of Visual Novels, Fuwanovel is simply not the place to discuss this complicated issue, and we ask you to avoid casual references to-, or discussions about-, pedophilia and the sexuality/sensuality of underage people or characters. This includes avoiding discussion or mention of porn- or sex-simulation games featuring underage or underage-appearing characters to the forums. 
  • Rules for images, avatars, and signatures: Do not post sexual pictures of underage characters. If an image is focused on, accentuates, or exaggerates a character's nipples, vulva, or penis or positions them sensually (body position, wet panties, nearly naked, etc.), you should not post it and it will be taken down.
 
Let's analyze this in the context of the original "offense": my thread.  Does it violate the third bullet?  No.  There were no explicit images posted or hosted on these forums.  The second bullet?  No.  It was about a visual novel (see the entry on VNDB).  The first bullet?  No.  The discussion was in good taste until a few anti-lolis with a bone to pick came along and stirred up trouble, which is why it went unmolested by moderators for 12 hours.
 
As for this being a legal issue... I've seen absolutely no hard data showing this is true (regarding non-explicit sexual content).  That's a smokescreen.  The issue here isn't the law.  The issue is that Tay and friends don't want people rocking the boat.
 
The problem with this ruling is that it stifles discussion, not that it bans explicit images (which were already banned anyway).  The banning of non-explicit images is an unfortunate off-target effect that people are rightly concerned about--but THAT point is completely unrelated to the instigating incident.  And non-explicit images are not illegal in any First World English-speaking country that I'm aware of.  Again, the legal talk is just a smokescreen to make people accept this without thinking too hard.
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But that's not what this is at all, games depicting racism are exactly that, they are just depicting racism not encouraging it nor fighting against it, they just depict it just like it happens in the world. Same way games can depict wars just like they happen, people murdering each other just like it happens. It doesn't mean you do those things.

Besides comparing a hate towards a specific race or group of people to a consensual love that usually happens in the regular moege is not a good thing. Sure encouragement of rape and such is banned but that already is banned as well even while I was around. But this really is comparing hate with love.

 

And you can still talk about those moege and the lolis within them all you want. That is still allowed. 

 

The point I was trying to get across is that in any reasonable discussion forum, there will always be rules about what you can and can't talk about. The ones on Fuwa, even including this new policy change, are consistent in their purpose. Trying to object to just one because of your personal interests is a double standard.

 

edit: I don't want to make this topic even more difficult to read, so this is my last post about this.

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But discussion isn't banned. You can discuss HoshiMemo as much as you want, you just can't talk about how you want to bang x or y because discussions about pure porn should be better left in private chats with friends.

 

Wait so can I say 'would bang Komomo'  vs. 'would bang Mare'?

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Let's analyze this in the context of the original "offense": my thread.  Does it violate the third bullet?  No.  There were no explicit images posted or hosted on these forums.  The second bullet?  No.  It was a visual novel (see the entry on VNDB).  The first bullet?  No.  The discussion was in good taste until a few anti-lolis with a bone to pick came along and stirred up trouble, which is why it went unmolested by moderators for 12 hours.
 
As for this being a legal issue... I've seen absolutely no hard data showing this is true (regarding non-explicit sexual content).  That's a smokescreen.  The issue here isn't the law.  The issue is that Tay and friends don't want people rocking the boat.
 
The problem with this ruling is that it suppresses discussion, not that it bans explicit images (which were already banned anyway).  The banning of non-explicit images is an unfortunate off-target effect that people are rightly concerned about--but THAT point is completely unrelated to the instigating incident.  And non-explicit images are not illegal in any First World English-speaking country that I'm aware of.  Again, the legal talk is just a smokescreen to make people accept this without thinking too hard.

 

While your post was definitely a catalyst for what ultimately became this new policy, these rules weren't made as a reaction to it, just FYI for the sake of full transparency : P. Your post made me realize that the situation had changed and we needed to re-consider it. Also: the staff was having a big discussion about it. That helped.

 

RE: The post -- The issue was inflammatory language and the game was a porn game. Both of those are in there. If you want to talk about the post, that's a discussion to bring up with the mods via PM.

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Sexual images are banned, check. No problems with that. I see the rules stated on the first page too. For me it is nothing out of context.

But what I am afraid of is mods being inconsistent about what is unacceptable and acceptable. A lot of moe loli/shota pictures could theoretically be offensive for person/mod A and person/mod B think it is nothing special even though they are acceptable according to the rules. How should the mods approach this?

 

Anyway. I am supporting you and this decision. Use common sense when talking. What is acceptable if you discuss things in public?

 

Edited text.

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As for this being a legal issue... I've seen absolutely no hard data showing this is true (regarding non-explicit sexual content).  That's a smokescreen.  The issue here isn't the law.  The issue is that Tay and friends don't want people rocking the boat.
 

 

 

Okay, either I understood the policy change completely out of my ass or this is completely wrong. Tay explicitly stated that there was a legal side to this case related to the server host as well as sexualized (drawn) images of underage girls being downright ILLEGAL in some countries if I am not mistaken, and that's why this change had to absolutely be made: For the future and safety of this forum.

 

 

Besides that, I'd like to ask something. Besides legal concerns, is there any basis for banning positive DISCUSSION of underage people in fiction? I get the pictures (offended people, legally dubious, yadda yadda) but I don't get the fictional discussion part.

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