starlessn1ght Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Yes. All of these points only apply to lolis/shotas. RE: Your other points -- As I tried to point out, this isn't a moral move, it's a site security issue since we cannot control the content people will post. If you're doing something on the site and you have common sense and can pull it off appropriately (read: tastefully), then it's absolutely a common sense/case by case thing. But, more specifically, this post and its rules is about the forums, not the other parts of the site. Hope that helps. But do not underaged girls who just look like underaged count as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiduhBMX Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 So, I can make a simulation game about being a Nazi and have real "CG" effects where I murder Jews in ovens then right? I mean, it's just a game. Exactly, Why not? It's not real life. You're not hurting anyone. People are just way too easily offended. This crap needs to stop. BananaShiki 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I don't know if some people are trolling or just geniunely stupid. There are some limits that are just not acceptable to cross. The VN communty is already borderline so such measures are necessary. And those ridiculous comparaisons just make you look more ridiculous. Stop for your sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 So, I can make a simulation game about being a Nazi and have real "CG" effects where I murder Jews in ovens then right? I mean, it's just a game. I think that idea is kidna similar to the game Hatred that came out recently, its kinda a bad game though but had these controversies because people didn't realize its just a game xD BananaShiki 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solidbatman Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I fully understand why the decision was made. And this doesn't affect 90% of members here. The fact it even came up was surprising because I had been under the assumption that Nayleen was clear in saying no pornographic material at all a while back. So, if that was the case, will punishments be in order for this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlessn1ght Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 It's difficult to know what applies as underage here. You guys should be more specific. Does Makina from Grisaia count? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funyarinpa Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Outside the realm of Visual Novels, Fuwanovel is simply not the place to discuss this complicated issue, and we ask you to avoid casual references to-, or discussions about-, pedophilia and the sexuality/sensuality of underage people or characters. This includes avoiding discussion or mention of porn- or sex-simulation games featuring underage or underage-appearing characters to the forums. Okay, if I am reading this right, does that mean loli-featuring routes and loli based games are officially banned now? Lock me in a room with Steve if I'm wrong, but lolis are pretty much made to look underage and cute from what I have seen, which mean their discussion etc. are now prohibited. I advocate completely free speech (and let everyone ignore/rekt posts they find atrocious or oblivious, as long as it is not harassing anyone or a group), and thus I'd prefer if people were free to discuss whatever they wanted here, but I understand the reasons you gave and thus I can only appreciate your effort to make Fuwa a better community, Tay. Thanks for always working for the good of the community, the staff! Chronopolis and Tay 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eclipsed Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Let's be real though, all of them articles we've seen where ppl get ganked by them laws were from them having 'child pron games' where the character in question really does appear very childObviously underaged rather than technically underaged is what they're aiming for I guess. Cuz we all know even though Mare is 5000 years old nvm I dont even know anymore afk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Lolis were a mistake. Zakamutt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 RE: "Ban everything!" Guys, the world is full of hypocrisy. I see murder or graphic violence all the time in hospitals. If you've witnessed it, you know how profoundly messed up it is. Yet for some reason, Western culture is fine with it in entertainment. The same goes for many other social constructs. Life is hypocrisy, and all change in life is ironic to some degree or another. The sexualization of children, for various reasons, is considered wrong by most governments. Child porn, pedophilia, and molestation -- whether real or simulated -- is illegal. Not only is it illegal, it's actively pursued and prosecuted. You may disagree with this move or hate that it had to take place, but the fact is that I have to make the hard decisions to protect the site so that it's here tomorrow, next week, and in five years. Why this issue and not another? Because it came up for the first time since the move and I realized that we're more vulnerable now than in the past. Period. Zenophilious, solidbatman, Loco15 and 9 others 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I fully understand why the decision was made. And this doesn't affect 90% of members here. The fact it even came up was surprising because I had been under the assumption that Nayleen was clear in saying no pornographic material at all a while back. So, if that was the case, will punishments be in order for this? Well the main difference now is that this is no graphical material or images, like sure i can understand catering to underaged users of the website etc by not allowing 18+ content like hentai images, sucks but its fine. But censorship of written text?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlessn1ght Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 UNDERAGE APPEARING? That's pretty vague, you know? A character can be considered underage appearing or not by different people. This is subjective... For example, some people call Taiga from Toradora a loli. I don't think she looks underage at all. She's just shoert... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BananaShiki Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Remember kids, violence and gore is fine. But porn? That thing's the devil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solidbatman Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Remember kids, violence and genocide is fine. But porn? That thing's the devil. Difference is, depictions of fictional violence and genocide dont send people to jail. Porn does. Its the way the world works. Get over it. Stray Cat and Loco15 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 ut do not underaged girls who just look like underaged count as well? UNDERAGE APPEARING? That's pretty vague, you know? A character can be considered underage appearing or not by different people. This is subjective... "I can't define porn, but I know it when I see it." - Justice Potter Stewart This is why we moved to the more open moderation system. You know what's really awesome? Common sense. If it looks like a loli, talks like a loli, acts like a loli -- chances are good it's a loli, and if it's sexualized per the above rules, a mod will take it down. Eclipsed and Chronopolis 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 How's that book you got $60 to write coming along Steve? I can see why Idolmaster would take up a lot of your time. Actually if you can hop on TS I can tell you more about it, its actually coming pretty well despite me only being able to focus on it so little (goal only few % reached). I reworked lot of the base script too as I got better at everything. Look forward to it but probably like 2016. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewycool Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Crap does this mean I can't be a shota any more? What in the world am I going to do??? Thanks for taking my older woman away from me tay. I approve of the changes but I think they'll be hard to adjust. Seeing that many people on this site has a fetish for lolis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlessn1ght Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 So this means the Loli Thread is going down now? And the trap thread will be cut a lot to... hehehehe... We won't get more Boku no Crap here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 "I can't define porn, but I know it when I see it." - Justice Potter Stewart This is why we moved to the more open moderation system. You know what's really awesome? Common sense. If it looks like a loli, talks like a loli, acts like a loli -- chances are good it's a loli, and if it's sexualized per the above rules, a mod will take it down. You crazy ambitious man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decay Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 This all seems perfectly acceptable to me. starlessn1ght 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurisu-Chan Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Can i ask something? What do underraged means for you? i want a description of underraged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenophilious Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 So this means the Loli Thread is going down now? Reread the rules. Nowhere in them does it say "If you talk about lolis, the Allmighty BanHammer will descend upon thy head and rend thy skull into itty bitty bits". Don't post sexualized pictures of lolis and don't talk about lolis in a sexual way. Narcosis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I've posted this elsewhere but I think this is relevant: Lolis are comprised of three things. Small frame and small chest An understanding that the character is underage or as innocent as one when it comes to interpersonal relationships A certain aura of vulnerability and an inferior position regarding the reader/viewer/player If we were to ban these three things at once, it should be easy to spot examples. But, and you all know this, it's a lot trickier than that. Not every "loli" has these three traits and everyone who takes an issue with them takes an issue with a combination of these factors, not - I suppose - only one of them (except the case of understanding the character is underage, but more about that in a second). Not only that, but these aren't always present in every portrait of the character. The small frame and small chest are the visual cues, but they don't appear in 100% of the cases. If Fuwanovel takes an issue with this particular part of the archetype, then we have a problem. We are enforcing a beauty standard not even in terms of taste, but judging what's "womanly", "sexualizable" if that's even a word, and what's not. Even worse, we're all men doing it. We're defining something that's none of our concern. Nine out of ten times the loli depictions we'll come across will be standalone pictures, so we would know nothing about how exactly the content is related to the actual cultural product named "lolis". Ren's old signature (RIP) is nothing more than a sexualized woman with a small frame and a flat chest. You know it's a loli because you know the character and everyone refers to her, Shinobu, as one. But are you going to say that depiction, in itself, is heinous? Poor gymnasts all over the world, I say. They are morally forbidden to have sex then, I suppose. If you're going to ban the visual aspect of it before anything, know you are hurting an entire demographic for no reason. I don't say that because I pity people with these features or like them particularly. It just seems like a half-assed, half-hearted and half-brained thing to do. Assuming the interest taken in lolis always relies on the fact that the character is a taboo, we enter in the one murky territory. The information that a character is someone's sister or student or simply isn't of age and yet is having sex with him may turn some guys on. This might be illegal. But it gets tricky when it comes to lolis because, being fictional characters as they are and unlike real people who age one day every day, authors can make up the most arbitrary excuses just to say all characters are over 18 years old and no one can say a thing about it. This one is a 600 years old vampire who lost her powers and now has a body that looks like that of an 8 year-old girl. This other one here is a magical experiment so magically strong they had to use her DNA to make her more powerful instead of developing her body. When it comes to cartoons, no one can accurately say "this doesn't look like an adult" when it might just have been a matter of style. Even if ill-intentioned. Yes, even then. Because one of the reasons why 18 years old is the parameter most governments use has something to do with maturity, so it's assumed people over 18 years old can or should be held responsible for their acts. If we attack the supposedly sick aspect of the relationship between the viewer/reader/player and the character - there's this aura of inoffensiveness around certain characters. You may even like them not in spite of their terrible acts and twisted mind, but precisely because of them. They can't hurt you, they hurt everyone else and you love it. Ilya is an example of that and so is Misa from Notch - The Innocent Luna: Eclipsed Sinners (good, reasonably long and cheap horror/mystery VN on Steam too, go get it). The general case of this feeling, I guess, is the basis of so called moe, but obviously not only that - it's not exclusive to the VN or otaku culture nor to people without the second X chromosome. To put the blame in this kind of thought is weird as it isn't really a case of abuse... is it? Not in itself, at least, I guess. TL;DR : Common Sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlessn1ght Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Can i ask something? What do underraged means for you? i want a description of underraged. It's no underage exactly. It's a rori. R-O-R-I. Gotcha? Now read Palas' description of a rori if you dunno what it is. Reread the rules. Nowhere in them does it say "If you talk about lolis, the Allmighty BanHammer will descend upon thy head and rend thy skull into itty bitty bits". Don't post sexualized pictures of lolis and don't talk about lolis in a sexual way. But there are sexualized pics of lolis there... And in the trap thread there are sexualized pics of shotas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryofrzd Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Incest still fine? I'm sure some people find it offending and it's not legal in that many countries. Also all VNs I know of that have loli characters state explicitly that they are 18+ no matter how cute and innocent they look. To be constructive isn't it better to ban mindless loliloli ichaicha sex sims and things around them instead of banning a pretty common thing in VNs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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