Sekai Project depends on crowdfunding entirely too much

[sanahtlig]

Well, kickstarter really became viable for Adventure and isometric (old-school) RPGs because those were dead genres. The adventure genre had been (sorta) dead since the 90s, and nobody had made an RPG that catered to actual RPG fans since … NWN2? Fans were desperate for new games, and they threw money at developers to make them. I understand why because I am one of those RPG gamers, and look at all the goodies we now have (Shadowrun, Pillars, Divinity, Wasteland. Torment’s coming.) It’s a second Golden Age really. Kickstarter was necessary because Publishers wouldn’t fund the games we like to play. And companies wouldn’t assume the risk when failure meant bankruptcy and going out of business. So the fans assumed the risk instead, and they assumed those risks willingly.

 

That being said, that doesn’t apply to stuff like Shenmue 3 (which already has funding) and Grisaia (which was already released illegally.) 

One of the duties of an established publisher is assuming financial risk and responsibility for projects under their umbrella.  In compensation for assuming this risk, they're entitled to a large share of the profit.  In Sekai Project's case, they're double-dipping: they're profiting from successful projects, while shifting the risk to the end-users.  I consider that irresponsible from a publishing perspective.  Developers are free to beg for money to make games.  That's what Kickstarter was designed to enable.  But publishers, especially established publishers, who do the same are just taking advantage of consumers.  Now that they've had their success, it's about time Sekai Project started taking responsibility for their projects and stopped foisting these responsibilities on the consumer.

[solidbatman]

One of the duties of an established publisher is assuming financial risk and responsibility for projects under their umbrella.  In compensation for assuming this risk, they're entitled to a large share of the profit.  In Sekai Project's case, they're double-dipping: they're profiting from successful projects, while shifting the risk to the end-users.  I consider that irresponsible from a publishing perspective.  Developers are free to beg for money to make games.  That's what Kickstarter was designed to enable.  But publishers, especially established publishers, who do the same are just taking advantage of consumers.  Now that they've had their success, it's about time Sekai Project started taking responsibility for their projects and stopped foisting these responsibilities on the consumer.

From what I can tell, they really aren't profiting all that much, especially if TLer pay rumors are true. Could be why they managed to land Key and Frontwing. By giving up nearly any profits made.

 

You're speculating and forming your argument around things that might not even be true. 

[Fiddle]

From what I can tell, they really aren't profiting all that much, especially if TLer pay rumors are true.

This is how I justify Foxconn.

[astro]

Simply put it goes against what kickstarter was designed for, it was designed to support projects not to become a business model.

It sounds to me like they're using it for exactly what KickStarer was designed for though...?

 

You can't run a business venture based entirely on donations

>donations

>donations

I've seen multiple threads like these before, and they always make me giggle at how misinformed people are. Backers are not getting nothing out of putting money into a campaign - in fact, they are getting more for their money for backing the KickStarter than if they were to just buy the game post-release.

 

 

Yeah they are releasing a metric shit ton more, but out of all of those titles how many of those are decent and not total shit? Just because they are releasing more does it mean that they are even titles worth reading.

That is a very shallow thing to say, as I can't imagine you've played any of those titles. Throughout this entire thread, you have been making assumptions out of thin air, as well as forcing your own opinions onto others by claiming to know how the market is supposed to work. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be aggravated that SP is not using an orthodox approach like MG and JAST. Well, I'll tell you this - the market is a fickle thing, and is rapidly changing.

 

 

No my problem is the over reliance of crowdfunding, though their titles do leave something to be desired, and theres also the fact that 2 of the major campaigns were for titles that have a localization in the case of Kajitsu and Clannad.

Well I am deeply sorry that two major titles spells 'over-reliance' for you

[sanahtlig]

From what I can tell, they really aren't profiting all that much, especially if TLer pay rumors are true. Could be why they managed to land Key and Frontwing. By giving up nearly any profits made.

 

You're speculating and forming your argument around things that might not even be true. 

Am I speculating a bit?  Perhaps.  Am I forming my argument around such speculation?  Absolutely not.  My original argument was in the first post.  The following posts expand on this argument, but the original argument was independent of Sekai Project's particular circumstances.

[Ryechu]

Is this a sign that I should do a massive review block of all of Sekai Project's games?  I'm down.

 

If I support something on Kickstarter, that means I would like to have it.  If I spend more money, that means I am willing to assign that value to the item.  If there are enough people similar to me who do the same thing, that means that the starter of the Kickstarter will achieve the goal that was (typically, there are rare exceptions) their drop-dead numbers in order to release the game.  If it doesn't make it, the company realizes that that specific venture was probably not destined to do well, and they adjust what they look for accordingly.  It's a business structure that works. If it works out well for them, good for them - they have the manpower and the drive to accomplish it.

 

If you don't want to play the game, that's fine.  Ignore the Kickstarter, Ignore the Steam Greenlight (better yet, tell them you're not interested by voting as such), and move on.  Those who do want to play the game will do the exact opposite, and the business will take those numbers and release more titles that are in the same vein as games that were successful on Kickstarter.

 

The hatred is painful to read.  We like VNs.  That's what this community is for.  We won't like everything put in front of us, that's a given.  That doesn't mean we should go on a tirade about a business that helps facilitate the release of VNs and that they're the devil for using a service that was designed for...exactly what they're using it for: gauging the market. In the meantime, I'm going to read a game I supported on Kickstarter and actively enjoyed and am thankful I supported.  I didn't invest in this company, I didn't expect to get anything more than what I paid for, and I don't expect to receive anything more than what I paid for from the company.

[astro]

JAST/MG-style funding:

- Pay for licensing costs out of own pocket

- Players buy the game once it's released

- MG hopefully makes back funds in sales

 

Pros:

- Less people bitching about you

- Can possibly license in bulk, whereas KickStarter really works on one project at a time

- Even if sales don't do well, licensing fees were already paid, so the Japanese companies probably wouldn't hesitate to work with them again if fees were paid again up front.

 

Cons:

- If not enough sales, they lose money

 

=========================================

 

Kick Starter:

- People can back projects if they are genuinely interested in the project

- Easy to gauge interest

- Everyone wins in the end

 

Pros:

- If not enough interest and campaign fails, no losses for anyone

- Backers actually get MORE out of their money (cheaper game + extra goodies WOW!!!111)

- Said goodies are exclusively made for western fans, for the KickStarter. See stretch goals for CLANNAD for instance:

"With the cooperation of some amazing artists in Japan, we'll create a Kickstarter original CLANNAD anthology manga!"

 

Cons:

- If project fails, the Japanese company in question might not want to work with them again because they've already tasted failure once (it might look bad for their company if they risked failing twice in a row).

This is something money can't buy, and is more damaging than low sales.

- People bitch about you

 

NOTE: Just because a project is gets funded 200% more than its goal doesn't mean they make more money than if those funds were to go into sales instead. Looking at price and raw value of backer tiers alone, it is generally cheaper for consumers to back the KickStarter. People who back the project generally won't need to buy the game a second time, which in fact decreases actual sales.

[sanahtlig]

Just because a project is gets funded 200% more than its goal doesn't mean they make more money than if those funds were to go into sales instead. Looking at price and raw value of backer tiers alone, it is generally cheaper for consumers to back the KickStarter. People who back the project generally won't need to buy the game a second time, which in fact decreases actual sales.

Not true.  I've seen Kickstarters where the game released cheaper on Steam than the lowest backer tier that provided a copy of the game.  My general observation is that backers tend to pay more for the same content than those who buy the game after it releases.  This is admittedly based on a small sample of observations so I'm open to seeing relevant and unbiased evidence to the contrary.

 

Like I said, I'd rather see more initiatives like contingent preorder campaigns or Greenlight knockoffs than actual crowdfunding campaigns.  Those would achieve the "pros" you pointed out without the "cons" that I'm concerned with, especially for Japanese visual novels where there's already a finished product that just needs to be translated.

[astro]

Not true.  I've seen Kickstarters where the game released cheaper on Steam than the lowest backer tier that provided a copy of the game.  My general observation is that backers tend to pay more for the same content than those who buy the game after it releases.  This is admittedly based on a small sample of observations so I'm open to seeing relevant and unbiased evidence to the contrary.

 

Just looking at a random tier for Grisaia:

 

$145 reward

Receive digital copies of: The Fruit of Grisaia, The Labyrinth of Grisaia, The Eden of Grisaia, OST for all 3 games, and Idol Mahou Shoujo Chiruchiru ☆ Michiru

Given that Kajitsu was nearly $40 on steam, the fact that you get 4 games, and the OST for 3 of them, all for only pledging $145 seems like a pretty good deal to me

 

 

Like I said, I'd rather see more initiatives like contingent preorder campaigns or Greenlight knockoffs than actual crowdfunding campaigns.  Those would achieve the "pros" you pointed out without the "cons" that I'm concerned with, especially for Japanese visual novels where there's already a finished product that just needs to be translated.

All types of campaigns will have their own respective cons in one form or another. Unfortunately, there is no 'perfect' method that can satisfy everyone. In that sense, I think it is foolish to be nitpicking on every flaw of every funding platform in existence when the pros seem to outweigh the cons for the consumers themselves.

[Decay]

Pillars of Eternity launched at $45 and was $20/$25 on Kickstarter (depending on whether or not you got the early bird special), so it can go both ways. The main problem being is that when a game's budget isn't even set in stone, it's hard to know how big it will be and how much it's actually going to be worth. Visual novel translations do not run into this issue. The games are already made, the translator should know exactly how much they are going to sell the completed version for, and that will not change. Sekai Project very reluctantly released Grisaia on Steam with a 10% introductory discount, and only after the backers commented saying it would be okay. 10% off isn't all that much, and people generally won't feel burned and the feeling of helping make something otherwise impossible happen is probably enough to overcome that. I don't expect VN translations to fluctuate in price in a major way after being funded on Kickstarter. OELVNs on the other hand can do this, but it should almost always go UP in price, giving kickstarter backers a better deal, not the other way around.

 

Just curious, what games released with a notably lower price than their Kickstarter price?

[firecat]

People entirely miss the point behind crowdfunding and sites like KS or Indie GoGo. It's a pre-sale. You're never a partner in business; you're a supporter of a product, that doesn't exist yet. From a dev standpoint, in a way, it's what it is - begging for money but as long as it will get certain things done, there's no reason to cry over lost dignity. They sell their ideas and it's consumer's own goddamn choice whether they want to support them, or not. You don't want it/don't like it? Don't pledge.

 

You don't have the slightest idea what are you talking about. The sole fact not a single of their campaigns flopped (as opposed to so many smart-ass developers trying to do everything by themselves) is more than enough to warrant their trustworthiness. In the end, everything depends on the developers themselves; SP is only lending them a helping hand with funding and public relations. It's the same as having a fine sponsor or being a part of a brand; it makes you a lot more credible and it's SP's role to stretch the potential response. This isn't "bad business", it's playing the right cards at an appropriate time to win the market.

 

oh i don't, Sekai Project has done nothing but translate VN. its so easy to translate something even the art can be easy to translate. you know why it cost a lot more to translate the words into english, its because they are hiring people who claim to be top-nonge english experts. how hard is it to translate english, not that hard and it can be done by a high school student. oh then comes the english voice actors too that also want to be paid, not all VN have them but Sekai Project translation has voice actors in them.

 

so ya its bad business when they hire random people to do many easy jobs, many japan people would have kill for a change to get that much money.

[astro]

What really confuses me is why people think Kickstarter is being abused by rich industries who want to milk money out of people. What makes them think that Kickstarter rakes in more money?

 

What is the difference between backing $35 on Kickstarter to get a game, and buying it later for roughly the same (if not more expensive) price? I am not giving them any extra money to get the product I want, so where is all that so-called 'milked money' coming from?

[Stray Cat]

What happened, did someone win yet?

[Heizei_koukousei]

[Zakamutt]

Oh my god, I knew it! WAKE UP SHEEPLE! BIG EROGE IS REAL!

[sanahtlig]

Just curious, what games released with a notably lower price than their Kickstarter price?

 

($15) https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ecchi-mery-and-the-perils-of-the-cosmic-shrine#/story

($10) http://www.mangagamer.com/detail.php?goods_type=1&product_code=137

 

That's the first one that comes to mind.  Like I said, I don't follow crowdfunding that much.

 

Huniepop is also cheaper now due to Summer Sale ($7 vs. $10).

 

 

All types of campaigns will have their own respective cons in one form or another. Unfortunately, there is no 'perfect' method that can satisfy everyone. In that sense, I think it is foolish to be nitpicking on every flaw of every funding platform in existence when the pros seem to outweigh the cons for the consumers themselves.

Oh, I don't mind if people want to throw money at crowdfunding projects and shoulder the risk for publishers like Sekai Project, so that later on I can buy the same title at my convenience after looking at reviews.  They're entitled to do so, and I'm entitled to sit on the sidelines and snicker, "Suckers."

 

What is the difference between backing $35 on Kickstarter to get a game, and buying it later for roughly the same (if not more expensive) price? I am not giving them any extra money to get the product I want, so where is all that so-called 'milked money' coming from?

 

Even if the end price is the same, you're forgetting the concept of risk--that money could be donated and a game never released, that the game ends up not being what individuals were expecting, or any other number of mitigating circumstances that would've caused a person to not spend that money in retrospect.  In aggregate, sales could increase by packaging these risks in such a way that people forget about them, only for them to realize later that they ended up making a purchase they weren't fully satisfied with.

[nohman]

If it works, it works and I don't see a problem with it.

It's not an unethical approach to business just because it's an nontraditional one. As it's been said by a lot of people in this thread already, there's usually plenty of transparency behind Kickstarters and the people who back them are familiar with the risks (i.e., the lack of guaranteed delivery of a product) associated with the platform. If the crowdfunding model did not offer any value whatsoever to both consumers and developers alike, it would stagnate and eventually die off. Some people are saying SP has an over reliance on crowdfunding and I can't directly refute that one way or another, but they aren't doing anything wrong from a consumer's standpoint by utilizing it. It's probably not a sustainable long-term business model, but it's working right now.

 

I get not embracing kickstarter as a consumer. The value might just not be there for some people and the risk just not worth it. It also feels pretty cheeky to see a company continually not shoulder any monetary risks in developing a product. If you feel that way, obviously don't use it. 

[Kaguya]

Oh my god! Companies want money while minimizing risk to themselves! 

 

Mindblown, truly. 

[nohman]

Oh my god! Companies want money while minimizing risk to themselves! 

 

Mindblown, truly. 

 

I know you're just being snarky and all, but...

No one is asking why SP crowdfunds, it's pretty freakin' obvious, but rather is it right (from whatever perspective or spin you want to use) that they're doing so.

[Zakamutt]

($15) https://www.indiegog...c-shrine#/story

($10) http://www.mangagame...roduct_code=137

$15: "Receive a digital copy of the fully translated game when it's released, and choose one of the Japanese versions of A Cellar's current games."

 

Not equivalent, though you have a point.

 

Steam sales happening are admittedly a thing, though they usually tend to be a decent time after release - which isn't much different than the usual deal with game prices these days. Personally? I don't know about World End Economica's ep2 and 3 prices (I got the early bird tier for the series at $20 iirc), but I do know that even the launch discount (and some further ones) for fault -milestone one- couldn't beat the price I got from backing the Kickstarter at the minimum tier for the copy, $10. The tier above also included the yet-to-be-released (non-free) prologue, so it probably wasn't lower value either.

[Kaguya]

I know you're just being snarky and all, but...

No one is asking why SP crowdfunds, it's pretty freakin' obvious, but rather is it right (from whatever perspective or spin you want to use) that they're doing so.

 

I think the whole thing is even more stupid when you go into right or wrong.

 

Is it violating other people's freedom? No. Check. Is the product they promise being delivered once they get the money? Yes. Check. Are they breaking any other law of some sort? Aside from organized crime with the illuminati, no. Check. 

 

...Can't think of anything else to check, tbh. Their priority should be profit and keeping themselves alive. Using kickstarter is a nice 'n rational way to go for it. 

[sanahtlig]

$15: "Receive a digital copy of the fully translated game when it's released, and choose one of the Japanese versions of A Cellar's current games."

 

Not equivalent, though you have a point.

I... fail to see to see how a Japanese version of a game holds any value whatsoever for someone who is funding the English release of a game--other than me and the small minority of people in the English scene who play games in Japanese but would rather play them in English.

 

I will admit however that my research on this subject has tended to refute my belief that games tend to release on Steam cheaper than the crowdfunded rate.  I'm actually curious how this notion got in my head in the first place.

[Eclipsed]

Its totally wrong for SP to rely on Kick start cuz, as consumers, we want to pride ourselves on having a company take risks on its own funds rather than crowd fund using us cuz that's the RIGHT thing to do business-wise cuz we all own businesses and know that traditional non cheeky methods are the proper way to go otherwise they're a bunch of illegitimate slobs who are to pansy to bring us quality products on their own pockets.

[nohman]

God bless, Eclipsed.

You drunk m8?  Teeku

[sanahtlig]

On second thought, I don't really care that much about this issue.  Sekai Project isn't even releasing games I want... so why I should I even care how they run their business?  Honestly what I don't like about Sekai Project is their "non-adult first" policy rather than their penchant for crowdfunding (though the two are sort of linked).  If they continue down the path they're on they'll simply fall off my radar as a company worth thinking about, much like NIS America.