Sekai Project depends on crowdfunding entirely too much

[solidbatman]

It's going to come back to bite them eventually if that's all they do.  You can't run a business venture based entirely on donations unless you're a nonprofit that operates entirely on cultivating donations through goodwill.  Sekai Project is a for-profit company, obviously.

 

I don't like how Kickstarter is being used recently, either.  I have nothing against Shenmue or the people making it, but they essentially turned the site into a pre-order retailer without admitting that's what they were doing.  We all know that Sekai can most likely afford to fund things themselves now, considering how popular the Sakura series is, for some reason.  I was hesitant to use Kickstarter in the first place, but if things continue like this, no Kickstarter project will see any money from me unless they can prove that they aren't just gauging interest, and the project won't be funded no matter what.  It goes against the very purpose of the site.  AAA publishers and developers using the site is moronic.

[douggle]

Sekai isn't AAA. They likely have very little cash reserves, if any. 

[solidbatman]

They are taking advantage of said system and relying on it as a business model, which is something that crowdfunding shouldn't be used for.

[Zenophilious]

Sekai isn't AAA. They likely have very little cash reserves, if any. 

[douggle]

Who the fuck cares!? Like, Sekai is managing to release a metric fuck ton more than JAST, and is keeping up with an established VN publisher in MangaGamer. They don't have a storefront up yet and their site isn't all that much to look at. 

 

If Sekai had the money to shoulder the costs on their own, then you might have a point I could understand. But they don't. So they basically say, "If you want this localized, then show us."

[Nosebleed]

Most if their Kickstarter projects weren't even initially made by them lol.

 

Sekai Project is primarly a service for other devs to get easier access to publishing and advertisement as well as help with public relationships.

 

A lot of Sekai's Projects used to be made by indie developers, they just slapped the Sekai Project logo on it later, but it's still not technically Sekai Project's product and a lot of the profit goes to the indie developer, not Sekai Project.

 

So really think of it as a bunch of different indie devs having their own separate kickstarter, because that's really what this is, they just slap the SP brand on it.

[Chuee]

Kickstarter is a platform used to help small name companies get funding for projects sort of like a preorder system except with a bunch of dumb as shit add on tiers so people can throw more money. SP uses it because they can cash in on that to get larger licenses through it. The thing is, when you continually use it for cheaper titles it just makes you look poor, but we obviously know sekai isn't poor, so it's likely just they would rather have the extra money from add on tiers than by doing simple preorders. JAST and Mangagamer don't use kickstarter because they don't need to since they can pay for their licenses anyways. Anything that those two wouldn't be able to afford a license for likely wouldn't be able to with a kickstarted either even though dovac says otherwise.

[Decay]

Yeah they are releasing a metric shit ton more, but out of all of those titles how many of those are decent and not total shit? Just because they are releasing more does it mean that they are even titles worth reading.

 

So your problem then is the quality of their titles, not that they're using Kickstarter. What if all of these titles were super appealing to you? Would you still be singing the same tune about overusing Kickstarter? 

 

Sekai Project is new to this industry, and they are attempting a rapid expansion strategy. Part of this rapid expansion strategy is trying to use Kickstarter as much as possible. They aren't just sitting on the money or pocketing it all. They are using their cash reserves to get a lot of the doujin stuff you're seeing, like both of those yuri titles they've announced recently, while using Kickstarter to additionally fund the more expensive or potentially riskier stuff since they don't actually have  a lot of money setting around. And also, again, some of these projects aren't even for SP. 

 

It is entirely possible that they are expanding too quickly. Just because all of their projects have met their goals and been profitable doesn't mean that this is a good strategy. I can foresee a future where they start to buckle under their own weight as they grow too big too fast. I'm not sure that's actually going to happen, but it's a possibility. But right now that's the strategy SP is going for and Kickstarter continues to be vital for propelling them so rapidly. I won't begrudge them for using it in that way. I don't buy into the whole philosophy of Kickstarter being a tool that must be used in very specific ways. It's a very versatile tool and companies should be encouraged to use it in any way that can assist them, as long as they aren't running scams.

[Zenophilious]

 

Most if their Kickstarter projects weren't even initially made by them lol.

 

Sekai Project is primarly a service for other devs to get easier access to publishing and advertisement as well as help with public relationships.

 

A lot of Sekai's Projects used to be made by indie developers, they just slapped the Sekai Project logo on it later, but it's still not technically Sekai Project's product and a lot of the profit goes to the indie developer, not Sekai Project.

 

So really think of it as a bunch of different indie devs having their own separate kickstarter, because that's really what this is, they just slap the SP brand on it.

True, but I really don't think that continuing that is in their best interest.  It makes them look greedy and less successful, whether or not that's actually true.  At the very least, they need to stress that they are not the ones making the Kickstarters, and that they're just supporting the people that are.  If you make a Kickstarter project, it's implied that you are unable to fund it with your own money and that's why you've turned to crowdfunding.  Sekai's name on it makes it seem otherwise to the people that aren't in the know.

[douggle]

So your problem then is the quality of their titles, not that they're using Kickstarter. What if all of these titles were super appealing to you? Would you still be singing the same tune about overusing Kickstarter? 

 

Sekai Project is new to this industry, and they are attempting a rapid expansion strategy. Part of this rapid expansion strategy is trying to use Kickstarter as much as possible. They aren't just sitting on the money or pocketing it all. They are using their cash reserves to get a lot of the doujin stuff you're seeing, like both of those yuri titles they've announced recently, while using Kickstarter to additionally fund the more expensive or potentially riskier stuff since they don't actually have  a lot of money setting around. And also, again, some of these projects aren't even for SP. 

 

It is entirely possible that they are expanding too quickly. Just because all of their projects have met their goals and been profitable doesn't mean that this is a good strategy. I can foresee a future where they start to buckle under their own weight as they grow too big too fast. I'm not sure that's actually going to happen, but it's a possibility. But right now that's the strategy SP is going for and Kickstarter continues to be vital for propelling them so rapidly. I won't begrudge them for using it in that way. I don't buy into the whole philosophy of Kickstarter being a tool that must be used in very specific ways. It's a very versatile tool and companies should be encouraged to use it in any way that can assist them, as long as they aren't running scams.

No my problem is the over reliance of crowdfunding, though their titles do leave something to be desired, and theres also the fact that 2 of the major campaigns were for titles that have a localization in the case of Kajitsu and Clannad.

[sanahtlig]

I'm not a big fan of crowdfunding for-profit projects.  I find it exploitative.  If I'm investing in a for-profit enterprise, I expect a return on my investment--i.e., if I contribute 1% of the funds to create a game, then I have a 1% stake in that game, and I expect a cut of the profits that result from the game's sale.  Now, it would be different if crowdfunding was used to develop a game and the game was then freely distributed afterwards.  But that's not what's happening.

 

I'll grudgingly support a new developer that needs the funding to get their first project off the ground.  But after that?  They better start funding themselves using the profits they withheld from investors.

 

I'm extremely skeptical of traditional crowdfunding campaigns, and I would only support them for a product that I really want, or for an innovative cause that I think is worthy of donating to (to date, these requirements have not been met).  And more than likely, I would contribute at the minimum level to obtain the primary game assets.  Sekai Project's continued reliance on crowdfunding is just one more reason I continue to regard them and their business practices with suspicion.

 

As for a glorified preorder campaign, I'm not necessarily opposed to that concept, though I'd be extremely wary if they said they would charge me in advance for a product that is still in the planning stages with no projected release date.  I'm not opposed to preorder campaigns to gauge customer interest (similar to Steam Greenlight).  I'm opposed to assuming financial risk for the profit of others--i.e., being exploited.

[Narcosis]

I don't have a problem in using it in itself, but when they have 8 projects funded by kickstarters thats a bit much

And as been pointed out other VN publishers manage without it, its just not an ethical approach.

And what makes you to judge that and on what basis?

 

I've never seen so many smart-asses. First you complain there are no TL's at all and no there's no games and everything is unobtainable. Then you complain, when a trusted publisher is doing too well and publishes way too many visual novels, because KS/business ethics? Logic.

 

In case of SP, KickStarter involves little to no risk, it's only reasonable they took it as an advantage; other publishers like JAST or MG are way too mainstream and rely on different types of funding, if anything it's only their own fault for not using KS as a potential monetary source. KS is preety much an awesome way to fund projects nowadays and help small developers to appear on the market, as long as the company behind it can be trusted and knows how to handle the campaign. SP isn't and never was a big company to start with, nor does it manage huge funds.

 

KS isn't only a crowdfunding platform anymore, it's a very optimal system that allows developers and publishers to deliver certain products in a pre-sale way, they wouldn't be able to deliver in any other case because the potential risks involved are often way too big to justify potential profits. It allows them to bypass a lot of nasty shit often that often accompanies the publishing process, or self-publish stuff. SP is a company that offers help in publishing with funding and PR, while devs can focus solely on actual game development. In case of SP, they can basically probe the market for interests, put up a potential product and it's up to people whether they want to support it, or not. In the end, everything that lands on KS was long before welcome by the consumers who want those things published/finished in the first place.

 

As long as they keep delivering quality content, working along with devs and building a network of trust and possibilities, the fact they use KS in way that allows them to expand rapidly makes any ethics involved completely irrelevant, as it doesn't impact anyone else. After all, they've been doing good job, they made a lot of people happy and don't plan to stop. It might be their strategy to build up their title base with small indie releases, while they're preparing for bigger business deals. After all, they managed to do something both Jast and MG haven't been able to do for years. Don't expect them to sleep on money, though; they're simply smart and know how to use everything internet has to offer in order to fulfill their plans. As long as everyone's content, I couldn't care less if a bunch of people thinks what they do is unethical, simply because they learned to use KS to the fullest potential.

[Eclipsed]

TL;DR SekaiProject do rely on Kickstarters too much, but w/e it works for them qq moar unethical <- (does that really matter??) bb lates

[douggle]

And what makes you to judge that and on what basis?

 

I've never seen so many smart-asses. First you complain there are no TL's at all and no there's no games and everything is unobtainable. Then you complain, when a trusted publisher is doing too well and publishes way too many visual novels, because KS/business ethics? Logic.

 

In case of SP, KickStarter involves little to no risk, it's only reasonable they took it as an advantage; other publishers like JAST or MG are way too mainstream and rely on different types of funding, if anything it's only their own fault for not using KS as a potential monetary source. KS is preety much an awesome way to fund projects nowadays and help small developers to appear on the market, as long as the company behind it can be trusted and knows how to handle the campaign. SP isn't and never was a big company to start with, nor does it manage huge funds.

 

KS isn't only a crowdfunding platform anymore, it's a very optimal system that allows developers and publishers to deliver certain products in a pre-sale way, they wouldn't be able to deliver in any other case because the potential risks involved are often way too big to justify potential profits. It allows them to bypass a lot of nasty shit often that often accompanies the publishing process, or self-publish stuff. SP is a company that offers help in publishing with funding and PR, while devs can focus solely on actual game development. In case of SP, they can basically probe the market for interests, put up a potential product and it's up to people whether they want to support it, or not. In the end, everything that lands on KS was long before welcome by the consumers who want those things published/finished in the first place.

 

As long as they keep delivering quality content, working along with devs and building a network of trust and possibilities, the fact they use KS in way that allows them to expand rapidly makes any ethics involved completely irrelevant, as it doesn't impact anyone else. After all, they've been doing good job, they made a lot of people happy and don't plan to stop. It might be their strategy to build up their title base with small indie releases, while they're preparing for bigger business deals. After all, they managed to do something both Jast and MG haven't been able to do for years. Don't expect them to sleep on money, though; they're simply smart and know how to use everything internet has to offer in order to fulfill their plans. As long as everyone's content, I couldn't care less if a bunch of people thinks what they do is unethical, simply because they learned to use KS to the fullest potential.

I never once complained about the lack of translated games. But as such it shouldnt be used as a primary means of funding projects over and over again like SP does

[Darklord Rooke]

I'm not a big fan of crowdfunding for-profit projects.  I find it dishonest.  If I'm investing in a for-profit enterprise, I expect a return on my investment--i.e., if I contribute 1% of the funds to create a game, then I have a 1% stake in that game, and I expect a cut of the profits that result from the game's sale.  

 

I don't believe contributors are investors, they seem more like Sponsors. And people who use Kickstarter seem like they're competing for Patronage.

[solidbatman]

I never once complained about the lack of translated games. But as such it shouldnt be used as a primary means of funding projects over and over again like SP does

Okay, so whats your alternative? Compete with MG to get all the nukige? Or go the Jast route and relase like one game a year? 

 

Since you're the moral and business expert here, whats your solution?

[Bolverk]

I think Sekai Project should contact EA for funding.

[firecat]

guys look at it in a different view, all the games they help supported are just for paid games. yes they got some rights to certain games but what does that do to Sekai Project, nothing. just being popular is not a good way to say "we make money" it doesn't work like that, it's not how business works. they don't support freeware indie because they are only interested in games that give them that extra boost in their projects/company.

 

i rarely see any VN developers ask for reviews on IGN, PC Gamer, and indie game magazine. they all believe that their game will never make it, they think that the site will refuse to put story games on it, they think the site is for better games. well many vn are better than the games that reviews thrown at, they know what real games are and that's what makes a good company. Sekai Project has nothing but fans to offer which is not a income, however many people think they can gain help from them, which is completely wrong.

 

Sekai Project is bring bad practice to VN developers, you can't never expect a project to run well. things like computer dying, bugs in the game, inactive people, and (goodness forbid) someone dying might happen saying no to it will be someone's downfall once it actually happens. another bad practice is how they do use crowdfunding on almost any project, that's not how real life game industry does it, funding for a game is needed yes but asking people to give money will get old, too many projects will make people consider to only give money for whatever they can help spend money on. lasty it doesn't teach the developers anything, no i don't mean this in a art, code, music, and teamwork way, it's relying too much of a good thing kinda problem, the real world never works like that either does business professors.

 

so final words is yes, i do believe that Sekai Project is doing bad business.

[Chuee]

And what makes you to judge that and on what basis?

 

I've never seen so many smart-asses. First you complain there are no TL's at all and no there's no games and everything is unobtainable. Then you complain, when a trusted publisher is doing too well and publishes way too many visual novels, because KS/business ethics? Logic.

 

In case of SP, KickStarter involves little to no risk, it's only reasonable they took it as an advantage; other publishers like JAST or MG are way too mainstream and rely on different types of funding, if anything it's only their own fault for not using KS as a potential monetary source. KS is preety much an awesome way to fund projects nowadays and help small developers to appear on the market, as long as the company behind it can be trusted and knows how to handle the campaign. SP isn't and never was a big company to start with, nor does it manage huge funds.

 

KS isn't only a crowdfunding platform anymore, it's a very optimal system that allows developers and publishers to deliver certain products in a pre-sale way, they wouldn't be able to deliver in any other case because the potential risks involved are often way too big to justify potential profits. It allows them to bypass a lot of nasty shit often that often accompanies the publishing process, or self-publish stuff. SP is a company that offers help in publishing with funding and PR, while devs can focus solely on actual game development. In case of SP, they can basically probe the market for interests, put up a potential product and it's up to people whether they want to support it, or not. In the end, everything that lands on KS was long before welcome by the consumers who want those things published/finished in the first place.

 

As long as they keep delivering quality content, working along with devs and building a network of trust and possibilities, the fact they use KS in way that allows them to expand rapidly makes any ethics involved completely irrelevant, as it doesn't impact anyone else. After all, they've been doing good job, they made a lot of people happy and don't plan to stop. It might be their strategy to build up their title base with small indie releases, while they're preparing for bigger business deals. After all, they managed to do something both Jast and MG haven't been able to do for years. Don't expect them to sleep on money, though; they're simply smart and know how to use everything internet has to offer in order to fulfill their plans. As long as everyone's content, I couldn't care less if a bunch of people thinks what they do is unethical, simply because they learned to use KS to the fullest potential.

 

JAST and MG don't use Kickstarter because they have enough money to fund their own projects without having to go ask their fans to do it for them. Sekai Project is gaining enough popularity that to consider them that far behind Mangagamer and JAST is silly. 

 

Kickstarter is a crowdfunding tool, nothing else. The whole design behind it is crafted specifically for developers to be able to get in money to make projects that they would otherwise not be able to. It's not a pre-order system and anyone using it for such is basically just being greedy. The whole idea behind pledge tiers is to get people to spend more money for things that cost the developers little to nothing more. Take for example Grisaia. They have pledge tiers for 1000+ dollars that a single person can throw their way. What do they get? Besides a bunch of tapestries and stuff that in no way add up to that much money, you get stuff either signed by people who did Grisaia or a picture. For Frontwing, it costs jack shit to have Watanabe or Fukio draw a picture that they could likely complete in a day. Compared to the little investment, they get a huge sum of money in return when someone pledges one of the 1000+ tiers. For a company that doesn't have a lot of money to begin with, things like this help them get money without spending a lot. Though, if a company already has enough money to begin with, practices like this just come across as a dirty way to get a lot of money. 

 

"As long as they keep delivering quality content."

Where. I don't really see anything done by them that could be considered quality. The vast majority of games they've 'localized' have been small, unpopular doujin titles, and most of their translated titles came from existing fan translations. The few games they've translated aren't even that great quality-wise and from what they're doing with Clannad it doesn't seem like that will either. 

 

 

 

Okay, so whats your alternative? Compete with MG to get all the nukige? 

 

They're already doing that by partnering with every single OELVN project out there.

[Chronopolis]

 

As long as they keep delivering quality content, working along with devs and building a network of trust and possibilities, the fact they use KS in way that allows them to expand rapidly makes any ethics involved completely irrelevant, as it doesn't impact anyone else. After all, they've been doing good job, they made a lot of people happy and don't plan to stop. It might be their strategy to build up their title base with small indie releases, while they're preparing for bigger business deals. After all, they managed to do something both Jast and MG haven't been able to do for years. Don't expect them to sleep on money, though; they're simply smart and know how to use everything internet has to offer in order to fulfill their plans. As long as everyone's content, I couldn't care less if a bunch of people thinks what they do is unethical, simply because they learned to use KS to the fullest potential.

Yeah this. I'd prefer they not use that model, but as long as there are people who are willing to continue paying, even if it's mostly due to advertisement, than that's fine.

 

I'm pretty sure at this point Sekai Project would use its own capital to protect its name (ie. help get titles released that would have flopped normally).

 

The issue is pretty complex (in exactly what ways are Sekai Project exploiting/shifting the risk to/misleading the consumers compared to the normal model), but if they retain their happy customers, I see no problem with it. If anything, you could praise Sekai's Project's PR and presentation for making this model seem a matter of course to their consumers. People forget the security you get when you purchase a product that already exists (and that the maker took risk in making).

 

----

 

Most of the titles they've adapated are doujin titles. One of them that I was really sketchy about was WAS –The Hourglass of Lepidoptera because it's the first of a trilogy, and the makers have no prior history of good titles. But it all comes down to whether they can keep their customer base. Not sure how that will go though.

[sanahtlig]

I don't believe contributors are investors, they seem more like Sponsors. And people who use Kickstarter seem like they're competing for Patronage.

Crowdfunding is neither sponsorship (financial backing in return for commercial benefit, usually related to marketing) nor investment (financial risk in anticipation of future gains), but shares characteristics of each. Patronage might be the closest concept (financial backing in anticipation of continued service or performance of duties), except it assumes that the benefactor is in a position of power and has leverage over the benefactee. I chose the investment angle to showcase how crowdfunding shares many of the underlying benefits for the investee without the burden of being responsible to investors and compensating them for the financial risks they've undertaken. It's a system that favors the recipient at the expense of donors, and I'm astonished it caught on with such a lopsided incentive system.

A primary reason JAST and Mangagamer don't use crowdfunding is because Japanese developers won't let them. They regard crowdfunding as unprofessional, and for good reason, and they don't want their name sullied by shameless cash grabs. Note that most of Sekai Project's Kickstarter campaigns are for doujin projects, as doujin groups don't have a professional reputation to maintain. I'm a bit surprised Frontwing and Key let Sekai Project go through with the crowdfunding projects for Grisaia and Clannad, but don't expect Japanese professional companies to keep supporting an endless deluge of Kickstarter campaigns. By establishing themselves as perpetually reliant on crowdfunding, Sekai Project may be locking themselves into the role of doujin publisher, a role they may find difficult to escape once they're spurned by most or all professional developers. Japanese companies have long memories when it comes to social matters such as public image and professionalism.

[Darklord Rooke]

 It's a system that favors the recipient at the expense of donors, and I'm astonished it caught on with such a lopsided incentive system.

 

Well, kickstarter really became viable for Adventure and isometric (old-school) RPGs because those were dead genres. The adventure genre had been (sorta) dead since the 90s, and nobody had made an RPG that catered to actual RPG fans since … NWN2? Fans were desperate for new games, and they threw money at developers to make them. I understand why because I am one of those RPG gamers, and look at all the goodies we now have (Shadowrun, Pillars, Divinity, Wasteland. Torment’s coming.) It’s a second Golden Age really. Kickstarter was necessary because Publishers wouldn’t fund the games we like to play. And companies wouldn’t assume the risk when failure meant bankruptcy and going out of business. So the fans assumed the risk instead, and they assumed those risks willingly.

 

That being said, that doesn’t apply to stuff like Shenmue 3 (which already has funding) and Grisaia (which was already released illegally.) 

[Chronopolis]

A primary reason JAST and Mangagamer don't use crowdfunding is because Japanese developers won't let them.  They regard crowdfunding as unprofessional, and for good reason, and they don't want their name sullied by shameless cash grabs.  Note that most of Sekai Project's Kickstarter campaigns are for doujin projects, as doujin groups don't have a professional reputation to maintain.  I'm a bit surprised Frontwing and Key let Sekai Project go through with the crowdfunding projects for Grisaia and Clannad, but don't expect Japanese professional companies to keep supporting an endless deluge of Kickstarter campaigns.  By establishing themselves as perpetually reliant on crowdfunding, Sekai Project may be locking themselves into the role of doujin publisher, a role they may find difficult to escape once they're spurned by most or all professional developers.  Japanese companies have long memories when it comes to social matters such as public image and professionalism.

Yeah this is an important point. Also, with Kickstarters, if you fail, you'll have a large amount of pissed off fans, which is hard to recover from. It's even worse than releasing a bad game because of all the waits, promises and frustrations. I suppose that's why many people call it an unsustainable business model, because it depends on people not waking up to how lopsided it is.

[Narcosis]

I don't believe contributors are investors, they seem more like Sponsors. And people who use Kickstarter seem like they're competing for Patronage.

People entirely miss the point behind crowdfunding and sites like KS or Indie GoGo. It's a pre-sale. You're never a partner in business; you're a supporter of a product, that doesn't exist yet. From a dev standpoint, in a way, it's what it is - begging for money but as long as it will get certain things done, there's no reason to cry over lost dignity. They sell their ideas and it's consumer's own goddamn choice whether they want to support them, or not. You don't want it/don't like it? Don't pledge.

 

guys look at it in a different view, all the games they help supported are just for paid games. yes they got some rights to certain games but what does that do to Sekai Project, nothing. just being popular is not a good way to say "we make money" it doesn't work like that, it's not how business works. they don't support freeware indie because they are only interested in games that give them that extra boost in their projects/company.

 

i rarely see any VN developers ask for reviews on IGN, PC Gamer, and indie game magazine. they all believe that their game will never make it, they think that the site will refuse to put story games on it, they think the site is for better games. well many vn are better than the games that reviews thrown at, they know what real games are and that's what makes a good company. Sekai Project has nothing but fans to offer which is not a income, however many people think they can gain help from them, which is completely wrong.

 

Sekai Project is bring bad practice to VN developers, you can't never expect a project to run well. things like computer dying, bugs in the game, inactive people, and (goodness forbid) someone dying might happen saying no to it will be someone's downfall once it actually happens. another bad practice is how they do use crowdfunding on almost any project, that's not how real life game industry does it, funding for a game is needed yes but asking people to give money will get old, too many projects will make people consider to only give money for whatever they can help spend money on. lasty it doesn't teach the developers anything, no i don't mean this in a art, code, music, and teamwork way, it's relying too much of a good thing kinda problem, the real world never works like that either does business professors.

 

so final words is yes, i do believe that Sekai Project is doing bad business.

You don't have the slightest idea what are you talking about. The sole fact not a single of their campaigns flopped (as opposed to so many smart-ass developers trying to do everything by themselves) is more than enough to warrant their trustworthiness. In the end, everything depends on the developers themselves; SP is only lending them a helping hand with funding and public relations. It's the same as having a fine sponsor or being a part of a brand; it makes you a lot more credible and it's SP's role to stretch the potential response. This isn't "bad business", it's playing the right cards at an appropriate time to win the market.

[Darklord Rooke]

From a dev standpoint, in a way, it's what it is - begging for money but as long as it will get certain things done, there's no reason to cry over lost dignity.

 

Heh, there was a fair bit of begging on both sides when games like Wasteland and Torment got Kickstarted XD Lots of hysteria and tears from fans if I recall :3