What Makes a Bad Fan Translation?

[Zalor]

Above everything else, bad translations damage or even destroy VNs. It's safe to assume that people who had enough dedication to learn Japanese to read VNs, kinda like this medium. Sure, they could just say "Fuck this retarded community, I'll just read stuff in JP.". But, as Celphas mentioned, it's a rather lonely option. Not everyone here is completely anti-social, you know?

This is admittedly an inaccurate bias on my part, but I always pictured most people who loved VNs enough to learn Japanese to be relatively anti-social; partly because that's how I was with VNs. To specify, for half of the entire time I've been into VNs I didn't much involve myself with any VN community. Partly because the only communities I knew about then (this was before Fuwanovel) were VNDB and /JP/. And as you hinted at, a lot of my perception of these "elitists" are from the days I lurked /JP/.

 

If you can read JP, you can see how much a bad translation screws up the meaning. It's hard to think of reading it, as it's misleading just plain wrong a lot.

My want for, say, a Eustia translation is more indirect. I want more people to be able to experience the VN, and more people to discuss the VN with. Honestly, since Eustia has a strong artistic, audio, and atmospheric component, a bad translation would probably make for a lot of confused moments rather than destroying the whole experience. That being said, there's stuff I think is important, like the characters values/beliefs. I really don't want those mistranslated, because those are one of the most important if not *the* most important thing in the novel.

 

I don't want that to be done to other people, even if those people aren't aware of it.

I especially don't that to be done to the people who care about story details or understanding the story or analysis.

 

I like this explanation a lot. As I can completely sympathize with what you are saying, but I think it also showcases an interesting contradiction. What I'm starting to really understand for myself is that even with a good translation, people reading something in Japanese, are going to experience things differently than somebody reading the same thing translated into any other language. What I imagine is frustrating for anybody who is competently Japanese literate in the Western VN community is knowing that they can't discuss what they read (in Japanese) with somebody who doesn't know Japanese (even if they read the same story with a translation). This is where I think hate, or at least anger at translations comes into play. Because a translation will only satisfy the need for somebody who wants to experience a new VN; read it in their language (and yes, it will be at best only slightly different from the original). But people who read the original will still feel isolated.

 

I'm guessing it's kind of like if you know both English and Japanese really well, and were told to teach a class on Shakespeare in Japanese. Even with a fantastic translation; sooo much is lost. Simply because great writers have a talent with using words in a way that only people fluently literate in that language could appreciate. At best you could only hope to discuss the themes, historical, and cultural relevance of Shakespeare to a Japanese audience who read his work in Japanese. Whereas with an English audience, you can really dissect the way Shakespeare playfully uses the English language. Now to be perfectly honest, I don't think most VNs qualify to be considered well written even in their original language; but I fully realize that there is a sizable minority that are. In fact, it's that sizable minority (both the ones that are translated and not) that the western VN community mostly concerns itself with.

 

I must thank everybody who has involved themselves in this conversation for helping me finally understand this. While I don't necessarily agree with people who have extremely harsh (perhaps almost unrealistic) standards for fan-translations; I can at least finally understand where they are coming from. Now if only I could fast forward to the point in time where I can read Japanese fluently. xD For now I'll just have to continue the arduous journey of studying and practicing by reading.            

[sanahtlig]

I'm guessing it's kind of like if you know both English and Japanese really well, and were told to teach a class on Shakespeare in Japanese. Even with a fantastic translation; sooo much is lost. Simply because great writers have a talent with using words in a way that only people fluently literate in that language could appreciate. At best you could only hope to discuss the themes, historical, and cultural relevance of Shakespeare to a Japanese audience who read his work in Japanese. Whereas with an English audience, you can really dissect the way Shakespeare playfully uses the English language. Now to be perfectly honest, I don't think most VNs qualify to be considered well written even in their original language; but I fully realize that there is a sizable minority that are. In fact, it's that sizable minority (both the ones that are translated and not) that the western VN community mostly concerns itself with.     

Not everyone is concerned with the particular way words are put together in a story.  Some, like me, are more interested in the ideas, plot points, and overall themes.  Such things are perfectly translatable.  Even an edited machine translation could potentially capture these.  Obviously if you're into visual novels for literary reasons, nothing but the original text will satisfy.  But why the hell are you even here then?  Go play games in Japanese and discuss them on Japanese forums.

[Chronopolis]

What I imagine is frustrating for anybody who is competently Japanese literate in the Western VN community is knowing that they can't discuss what they read (in Japanese) with somebody who doesn't know Japanese (even if they read the same story with a translation). This is where I think hate, or at least anger at translations comes into play. Because a translation will only satisfy the need for somebody who wants to experience a new VN; read it in there language (and yes, it will be at best only slightly different from the original). But people who read the original will still feel isolated.

 

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that a competent translation (especially so if the TL, Editor are skilled, experienced, careful, and/or communicate well) is going to map out the original work into English such that, the experience (other than the nuance of the words) is the same, and any topic you could discuss from the original and translation refer to the same thing.

 

Edit:

Some, like me, are more interested in the ideas, plot points, and overall themes.  Such things are perfectly translatable.

Yes precisely this.

 

The one thing that is left behind is the prose. Which frankly doesn't matter, since literary or distinctive prose only appears in a small fraction of VN's. Appeals to emotions and dramatism can be suitable done in English by the average editor without much trouble. For discussing the story and experience (which come from presentation and story structure more often than pure prose) I don't feel a perceptible divide from a competent TL.

 

So to me, a competent TL is an achievable, realistic goal that lets the community and me have our cake.

A bad translation ... beyond leaving a bad taste in my month, raises a number of secondary issues.

 

Edit2:

 

Obviously if you're into visual novels for literary reasons, nothing but the original text will satisfy.  But why the hell are you even here then?  Go play games in Japanese and discuss them on Japanese forums.

In case someone was actually interested in that, FYI you could try #TLWiki, I can unsarcastically say you might find good company. On average Japanese readers don't care about prose any more than English readers. On the flip side there are English readers who do enjoy Japanese prose to varying extents. For Japanese things, it's regrettable there isn't really a common community location besides 2ch. However if you search the reviews of games with literary text, then you'll encounter more of that crowd.

[Zalor]

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that a competent translation (especially so if the TL, Editor are skilled, experienced, careful, and/or communicate well) is going to map out the original work into English such that, the experience (other than the nuance of the words) is the same, and any topic you could discuss from the original and translation refer to the same thing.

 

Yes, for professionals this is a reasonably attainable feat; but expecting every or even most fan-translations to accomplish high quality I think is a bit unrealistic. When it comes to fan translation the question of quality over quantity comes up. And unfortunately, since English fans are kind of starved of VNs in English, I think many people have consequently lowered their standards (as Pabloc was criticizing). I think there is a sizable amount of people who would rather have a sub-par translation than no translation at all; and I don't think we can particularly blame these people (not everybody has the time or commitment to learn Japanese).

 

Consequently fan translators are just fans, and they realize that they can make people happy even if they work on a translation when their Japanese isn't up to par. Now to be completely honest, I don't think people with sub-par translation skills will ever complete their project, but they can still release partial patches. I think this is why VN Translation Status updates are apparently popular hits on the Fuwazette. English speaking VN fans are so starved of VNs that they are stalking updates for projects. Those who are capable of patiently waiting for quality VNs to receive quality translations will probably eventually put their patience to better use and start learning the language.  

 

@sanahtlig

I agree. And as you mentioned even bad translations can capture the ideas and themes of what is written. But I feel that most people who criticize translations usually care about way more than just that; the people Pabloc labeled as group 1. I think these people care a lot about subtly in writing, which is much harder to translate. And yes, I do agree that I think they would be better off in Japanese forums.   

[sanahtlig]

In case someone was actually interested in that, FYI you could try #TLWiki, I can unsarcastically say you might find good company. On average Japanese readers don't care about prose any more than English readers. On the flip side there are English readers who do enjoy Japanese prose to varying extents. For Japanese things, it's regrettable there isn't really a common community location besides 2ch. However if you search the reviews of games with literary text, then you'll encounter more of that crowd.

I'm highly skeptical that the best place to discuss Japanese-language games is an English forum / chat group.  My BS sense is tingling.

[Chronopolis]

Yes, for professionals this is a reasonably attainable feat; but expecting every or even most fan-translations to accomplish high quality I think is a bit unrealistic. When it comes to fan translation the question of quality over quantity comes up. And unfortunately, since English fans are kind of starved of VNs in English, I think many people have consequently lowered their standards (as Pabloc was criticizing). I think there is a sizable amount of people who would rather have a sub-par translation than no translation at all; and I don't think we can particularly blame these people (not everybody has the time or commitment to learn Japanese).

Huh, now that you mention that, I guess I do have a higher bar than most (Group 1, but one of the point of my above posts was that even Group 1 has gradients). The difference between satisfying those two sub-groups is: the TL being proficient in Japanese, and being proficient in Japanese and capable of *writing*.

 

Anyways, I accept people's rights to translate whatever and enjoy w/e the hell they want. I also agree that there's that large pool of people in group 2 that would be more than happy with a readable translation and that its fine for people to translate for them. So I don't disagree with you there.

 

I agree. And as you mentioned even bad translations can capture the ideas and themes of what is written. But I feel that most people who criticize translations usually care about way more than just that; the people Pabloc labeled as group 1. I think these people care a lot about subtly in writing, which is much harder to translate. And yes, I do agree that I think they would be better off in Japanese forums. 

I kind of agree...but I kind of don't.

 

And as you mentioned even bad translations can capture the ideas and themes of what is written. But I feel that most people who criticize translations usually care about way more than just that;

Don't agree with this. A bad translation can capture some of the ideas and themes of what is written. Among the people who criticize translations, a vocal part of them come from group 1A (see below), and care about the the quality of the prose. But if it's ideas and themes you are talking about, I think you are missing a group of people when you say (most) people who critize fan translations care about "way more than just that".

 

TL'er understanding the meaning -> Preservation of the Meaning  -> preservation of close to all ideas and themes and other story elements. (which sanahtlig and I state are completely translatable, the barring factor is TL knowledge in japanese and attention to detail)

 

Consider an adapted version of Palas's grouping.

 

Groups and what they want.

Group 1:

Group 1A: A decent replication of the prose in English, plus the stuff 1B people care about.

Group 1B: Preservation of close to all ideas and themes and other story elements.

 

Group 2:

There's a scale here, from people who want a patch without obvious errors, to people who will take anything readable.

2A: English patch is presentable and doesn't have major mistakes

2B: English Translation is readable and comprehensible 

 

Most people who become proficient in Japanese automatically rise up to group 1B. Unless they have thought about and accept/tolerate/support translation for group 2, you are likely to see them grumble when a sub-par translation thread comes up.

 

I think with that we've discussed most of the points...At least I've expressed everything I want to say.

 

 

And yes, I do agree that I think they would be better off in Japanese forums.

If you want to discuss the prose specifically, this and similar forums are a bad place, but I don't know if there are even Japanese forums (it's pretty scattered, sadly).

[sanahtlig]

I'd like to debunk this idea that holding fan translations accountable to some standard has anything to do with one's Japanese proficiency.  The notion that the two are even logically linked is nonsensical.  Ask native Japanese players how much they care if English fans release subpar English patches of their favorite games.  They'd just shrug.  They wouldn't care!  And if they did care, it'd be because of the piracy!

[Chuee]

I'd like to debunk this idea that holding fan translations accountable to some standard has anything to do with one's Japanese proficiency.  The notion that the two are even logically linked is nonsensical.  Ask native Japanese players how much they care if English fans release subpar English patches of their favorite games.  They'd just shrug.  They wouldn't care!  And if they did care, it'd be because of the piracy!

 

Err, I assume they're talking about non-natives that know both English and Japanese. Native Japanese don't care because they don't speak English and don't interact with English speaking VN fans so it doesn't make any difference to them. Though I don't think all of them wouldn't care that much at all. Some of the people who are bigger fans of certain games might be a little disappointed that people are going to play a worsened version of their favorite game. 

 

Back to the main point though, it doesn't take someone with Japanese knowledge to spot a bad translation because anyone with a good enough grasp of English can figure out when something is written poorly. 

[Clephas]

What I hate is that when I talk to someone about something that happened in a VN that I played in Japanese and they in English... and they don't know what I'm talking about.  There are some moments like that in the Rewrite translation, for instance... They are little things, usually (it is rare for big issues to see a translation miss, though it happens), but it is enough to make discussions frustrating at times.  I experienced some of this with Majikoi and Grisaia as well, though with Grisaia it was mostly a narrative issue (Yuuji's occasional internal monologues and explanations of his train of thought) and with Majikoi it was just a few dialogue slips at key points of scenes I found interesting. 

 

The thing is, the Grisaia translation is generally considered to be a 'good' translation, but what a lot of us on the Japanese-reading side seem to think is a matter of course to demand is perfection... which is ridiculous, of course.

[Darklord Rooke]

The thing is, the Grisaia translation is generally considered to be a 'good' translation, but what a lot of us on the Japanese-reading side seem to think is a matter of course to demand is perfection... which is ridiculous, of course.

 

It's regarded as a good translation in the fan-tl scene, but the writing and language limitations are quite obvious. With such weaknesses there is always going to be issues with narrative, so I'm not surprised you're disappointed with that aspect of it. I don't understand the fanbase's worship of it tbh.

 

Coming from a literature background taints my view of things (I have quite a fair few translated Russian novels) and thus I have never come across a Visual Novel I consider to be well translated. If I was younger and not as focused on writing then I would definitely learn Japanese, but it's a little too late for that. But one shouldn't complain, the translations the English community get are better than nothing at all.

[sanahtlig]

It's regarded as a good translation in the fan-tl scene, but the writing and language limitations are quite obvious. With such weaknesses there is always going to be issues with narrative, so I'm not surprised you're disappointed with that aspect of it. I don't understand the fanbase's worship of it tbh.

 

Coming from a literature background taints my view of things (I have quite a fair few translated Russian novels) and thus I have never come across a Visual Novel I consider to be well translated. If I was younger and not as focused on writing then I would definitely learn Japanese, but it's a little too late for that. But one shouldn't complain, the translations the English community get are better than nothing at all.

From what I understand, many of your criticisms are of the Japanese writing tradition in VNs, not merely the translation.  I doubt even the original Japanese would satisfy you.

[Nosebleed]

Having begun learning English since I was 6 years old (14 years ago), I still once in a while find myself looking for a specific word I know in my native language and what its English equivalent is (it's rare but it happens sometimes). Because while I am fluent in the language, vocabulary and literary experience are something that is quite lacking in my background. So I have no doubts if I were to translate something from Portuguese to English, I would likely still lose some of the original meaning.

And this is much more present in a pictographic language such as Japanese.

I can confidently say that, unless I truly get into Japanese and English literature, all my translations will have a limited amount of vocabulary and a likely generic prose.

I can also confidently say that most people aren't going to do that, because Fan TLs are a hobby for almost all of us, that's why I doubt any Fan TL will ever truly exceed the highest of heights when it comes to writing, because at the end of the day, the ones doing them are, most of the time, just doing it as a part time thing, and those who truly engross themselves in Japanese just prefer reading the original text as is and not lose any meaning.

But to be honest, I'm okay with this state of things, because it allows the average reader without a an extensive reading background to more easily insert themselves in the medium, and while I'm not advocating for broken translations or grammar, I can forgive a vocabulary limit so long as the final result rolls off your average reader's tongue as if they were reading a newspaper or something. That's the best part about Fan TLs for me.

Edit: I also acknowledge most average Japanese VNs are really simplistic in terms of writing and repeat stuff over and over so it's not like it's just a translation issue but a source issue as well. At least from my experience. This in turn makes preserving the original text something that will make the English counterpart more repetitive if you don't have a strong grasp on vocabulary.

[Darklord Rooke]

From what I understand, many of your criticisms are of the Japanese writing tradition in VNs, not merely the translation.  I doubt even the original Japanese would satisfy you.

[sanahtlig]

Pffft, I’m totally an open-minded and easy to please fella... :3

[Pabloc]

Okay, I think we are mixing up different standards here.

All this talk about style, prose and whatnot, is only relevant to "great translations". Absolutely the best ones out there. I think only the most delusional JP-readers would seriously expect such level from an average Fan-TL.

That kind of quality would be nice of course, but it isn't really all that vital. People who seriously care about writing style, or those who simply prefer to experience everything the way it was written originally (like I do), will read most stuff in JP anyway. When you can read in JP, there's just no point in touching translations (other that saving time if your reading pace in ENG is noticeably faster).

 

Now, most current Fan-TL are what I'd call a "good enough translations". They accurately represent the original story and are written in readable English. Nothing more. They don't represent the original prose or writing style, just plot, characters, setting, etc.. And that's all the Fan-TL really needs to do. Of course, the more it does, the better, but that's the acceptable minimum. This really should work just fine for almost anyone who isn't dedicated enough to learn Japanese.

If a TL fails to deliver that (due to overly literal writing or some minor inaccuracies), but it doesn't fail horribly, it's what I'd call a "sub-par translation" (Rewrite is a good example here). It doesn't represent the original very accurately, but it's still perfectly readable, and all important details are preserved. Those can be a little annoying sometimes (as Clephas mentioned), but they still work. People who aren't familiar with the original, probably won't notice any errors.

 

Then, there are "bad translations". The main problem with those isn't prose, writing and all that fancy stuff you guys are talking about (though those usually suck, too). The biggest issue here, is that they don't represent the original at all, because they are filled with mistranslations. They alter characters' personalities, completely ruin the atmosphere, or even mix up the events and plot-points. In short, they utterly butcher the original story. Good editor could make them readable (you could probably even reforge a machine translation like this), but they still would be far too inaccurate to actually work. But, I don't think a good editor would touch obvious crap to begin with, so all you get is utterly unreadable garbage in the end.

 

Nobody sane really demands great translations, and nobody sane really complains about good enough ones. Some 4chan trolls, maybe.

And you can only really discuss prose and other literary aspects on the "great" vs "good enough" translations level.

 

Bad translations - those that do get bashed (and quite rightly so) - are on a completely different level. The prose, writing and stuff aren't the biggest issues here (those can always be fixed by editors). The main problem is that the TL is completely wrong and butchers the original. Like in Eustia or Monobeno cases.

Now, when clearly incompetent people are attempting to rewrite a VN somebody likes into a borderline-unreadable fanfic, it's only natural that some fans get pissed and start pointing out errors. Often in a not-so-civilized manner.

 

JP-readers will always have slightly different experiences than ENG-readers. But in case of "good enough" and even "sub-par" translations, those differences shouldn't be significant. "Bad" translations however, turn VNs into something completely different than their original versions, and are well capable of degrading a nice, enjoyable title (like KonoSora) into something worse than Shuffle or Katawa Shoujo.

[Chronopolis]

Okay, I think we are mixing up different standards here.

All this talk about style, prose and whatnot, is only relevant to "great translations". Absolutely the best ones out there. I think only the most delusional JP-readers would seriously expect such level from an average Fan-TL.

That kind of quality would be nice of course, but it isn't really all that vital. People who seriously care about writing style, or those who simply prefer to experience everything the way it was written originally (like I do), will read most stuff in JP anyway. When you can read in JP, there's just no point in touching translations (other that saving time if your reading pace in ENG is noticeably faster).

 

Now, most current Fan-TL are what I'd call a "good enough translations". They accurately represent the original story and are written in readable English. Nothing more. They don't represent the original prose or writing style, just plot, characters, setting, etc.. And that's all the Fan-TL really needs to do. Of course, the more it does, the better, but that's the acceptable minimum. This really should work just fine for almost anyone who isn't dedicated enough to learn Japanese.

If a TL fails to deliver that (due to overly literal writing or some minor inaccuracies), but it doesn't fail horribly, it's what I'd call a "sub-par translation" (Rewrite is a good example here). It doesn't represent the original very accurately, but it's still perfectly readable, and all important details are preserved. Those can be a little annoying sometimes (as Clephas mentioned), but they still work. People who aren't familiar with the original, probably won't notice any errors.

 

Then, there are "bad translations". The main problem with those isn't prose, writing and all that fancy stuff you guys are talking about (though those usually suck, too). The biggest issue here, is that they don't represent the original at all, because they are filled with mistranslations. They alter characters' personalities, completely ruin the atmosphere, or even mix up the events and plot-points. In short, they utterly butcher the original story. Good editor could make them readable (you could probably even reforge a machine translation like this), but they still would be far too inaccurate to actually work. But, I don't think a good editor would touch obvious crap to begin with, so all you get is utterly unreadable garbage in the end.

 

Nobody sane really demands great translations, and nobody sane really complains about good enough ones. Some 4chan trolls, maybe.

And you can only really discuss prose and other literary aspects on the "great" vs "good enough" translations level.

 

Bad translations - those that do get bashed (and quite rightly so) - are on a completely different level. The prose, writing and stuff aren't the biggest issues here (those can always be fixed by editors). The main problem is that the TL is completely wrong and butchers the original. Like in Eustia or Monobeno cases.

Now, when clearly incompetent people are attempting to rewrite a VN somebody likes into a borderline-unreadable fanfic, it's only natural that some fans get pissed and start pointing out errors. Often in a not-so-civilized manner.

 

JP-readers will always have slightly different experiences than ENG-readers. But in case of "good enough" and even "sub-par" translations, those differences shouldn't be significant. "Bad" translations however, turn VNs into something completely different than their original versions, and are well capable of degrading a nice, enjoyable title (like KonoSora) into something worse than Shuffle or Katawa Shoujo.

Yes, mixing up different standards is the cause of lots and lots of pain. All these four levels of translations exist and should be treated like that.

This, this, and this. This post objectively explains how things are, much more concisely they I could put it.

[ittaku]

Great comments.

 

Let's not forget that we are also talking about VNs here and not Murakami novels. Personally when I was translating I found it frustrating when I was dealing with a slice of life simple dialogue that would suddenly try and sound like serious prose with the vocabulary and grammar suddenly changing and then not long after it would revert back to simple language. Why bother trying to convey that you personally thought there was inconsistency in the original too? Any translation is always going to be a personal interpretation of what you read since this is an art and not a science, and when the material itself is inconsistent, what's the correct thing to do there? TH2 had 4 different writers and by the time I got to the end of the translation and looked back I noticed how different some of the routes were to the other ones. Since they were done over such a protracted period I didn't notice at the time and of course I wasn't that good a translator so I thought nothing of it, but if I were to have started again now, being faithful would have meant changing my own English style 4 times to match it. Fortunately I wasn't dealing with high art and I can't say I've ever read a VN that I thought was high art so that level of attention to detail means... you're probably in the wrong scene. It's a fan translation of a visual novel...

[Getsuya]

 

Bad translations - those that do get bashed (and quite rightly so) - are on a completely different level. The prose, writing and stuff aren't the biggest issues here (those can always be fixed by editors). The main problem is that the TL is completely wrong and butchers the original. Like in Eustia or Monobeno cases.

When you say Monobeno do you mean that one video that was made more than a year ago? I know the guy who made that is still working on that project (though hopefully he's studied up in the intervening time) but I also have a friend who I know to be a competent translator who joined up on the project as well, and they seem to have editors working with them too. I realize this is a 'I'll believe it when I see it' situation, but shouldn't we at least wait until they've given us something that was actually produced by the current project team to judge them, rather than immediately writing off the entire project due to a seriously out-dated video and one dumb post by the project organizer that was probably written in haste after being told multiple times to just give up and go away? I think we're being hasty. Let's not be hasty.

[Pabloc]

@Getsuya

They still linked to this video in their thread, without a slightest notice that the TL-quality is utterly abhorrent. They didn't even bother to watch it or what? Even just admitting that they are related to this thing in any way is a huge red flag. And they actually keep the guy who butchered it so badly in the team. Am I supposed to believe that he suddenly learned Japanese AND English? Yeah, right.
Also, they had quite a few chances to address the concerns about that awful video in their project thread, but they disregarded them completely. It was just one dumb post written in a haste? FFS, they had entire MONTH to respond in a more sensible way, but they didn't bother to do that.

 

All things they showed or said so far practically scream "Our TL will be garbage, yay!". There are just too many indications that they don't give a damn about TL-quality, and they don't even want to improve it in any way. "Project organizer" who has absolutely no idea what he is doing certainly doesn't help here. >_>

If your friend is indeed competent, and he is going to re-translate everything that this other guy did from scratch, then it could work.

[Getsuya]

Okay yeah, you and me are in total agreement over the debacle of the video. It was a crap video and the way the organizer guy responded to criticism was pretty crappy too (though let's be fair to both sides, the criticism was pretty snarky right from the get-go and could have been said a little more maturely). I would have been fine with them just saying 'Hey we're translating Monobeno! Look forward to the first patch!' and not doing any previews.

 

But let's use this as a chance to talk about what recourse groups have if they are doing a bad translation. Forgetting Monobeno or any specific examples for the moment, let's say you've got a guy who really wants to put together a translation for a game that's been out for a few years but hasn't been picked up by anyone. The guy hacks out the scripts and makes a program to reinsert them, great! Now he just needs a translation. He asks around and recruits but all the translators he manages to get for his project are crappy. All of them are 'learning' Japanese, and none of them have English as a primary language. They're really interested in helping out but their output is what you would term as a Bad Translation.

 

What do?

 

I mean yes the first and most obvious response is 'quit'. But what if this was the one chance that game ever had for a translation? So the group quits and nobody ever touches that game again, the end? That's all well and good for people who can read it in Japanese anyway, but everyone else just gets to try their best with a text hooker and forget about a real translation?

 

This is why I talk a lot about translations being community efforts. If a group shows up wanting to translate something, the community should see this as US, all of us, translating that game. If it fails it's because we didn't do enough to try and get them help. The shittiest translation can be brushed up with TLC and editing. If we just shrug and wash our hands of it well, then, I guess we just all should shut up and never request a translation for any game again because we aren't lifting a finger to help the people who are actually trying.

[XReaper]

apart from having misstranslations, i consider a translation beeing bad, when it sounds hollow whilst reading - means no strong words beeing used, no emotions beeing triggered, etc.

its the same like in movies when the voice actor absolutely doesnt fit the character., it ruins the whole experience. & i know that not every word in japanese has its english equivalent, so you have to think your own way around, same goes of course when it has one, but its impact is way less in english, so you have to find something else for not killing the atmosphere. i have nothing against making (very) minor changes, compared to the actual meaning, when its neccessary (nothing plotrelevant though) to improve the atmosphere or the reading experience in general

[Suzu Fanatic]

For my own 2 cp, Is when the tramslation makes things up, or leaves out obvious lines of dialouge. That really grinds my gears. Often, it's not that it's difficult to translate - but rather, uses more formal and expressive english - which many people seem to run screaming from. So instead it gets cut in half and "dumbed down"(not actually, but for all intents and purposes). Of coruse, sometimes it's the oppasite and a character is using cutesy-stupid talk, but the TL decided it was just that, stupid - and TL's it into "proper english". Thus losing a whole aspect of a characters tone~

 

The other thing, is when they try to transform a very japanese-specific reference into something "american" (or european, whatever, you know what I mean). A TL should stick to the culture the VN is centered around, not transform it becuase some people won't "get it". Clannad comes to mind as an example - alot of people cried and wailed at something that  was translated perfectly, but didn't make much sense to most readers, due to lack of cultural immersion. I took that reference and googled it, becuase I was one of the ones that had no idea what it meant, and waddya know - learning is power!

 

Just my personal experiences and thoughts, anyway~

[XReaper]

the problem with translating into english is, that its considered a global language.

so you´ve to make the desicion from the get go to either make it more appealing to a wider audience, which means lesser use of slang, uniqueness & stuff - means english light, or doing it stricly for those who´re native english speakers - means going full out, with a heavy use of prose, slang & whatoever comes to mind.

for those who want the best translation possible, only the 2nd way works, but from an economical point of view the 1rst one is the better, cause non native english speakers wont feel arkward whilst reading & therefore rather buy the full version. In the end its up to the company/fanlators to decide, if they want the best possible product done, or the one which ensures greater mainstream compatibilty on cost of quality.

[Pabloc]

The shittiest translation can be brushed up with TLC and editing.

 

No, it doesn't work that way. I tried doing just TLC at the beginning of common route (and that was the least screwed up part of the entire VN). The outcome: mixed up writing styles, minor errors that were overlooked, grammar that wasn't entirely fixed - all that added up to a crappy end result, despite my efforts to fix bigger issues with the TL. I went back to them later on and re-translated them from scratch just like everything else in the end.

 

TLC is applicable only when the translators know what they are doing, only lack some experience and occasionally mistranslate an idiom or something. TLC-ers are only supposed to check the TL and fix just a few mistakes. When they have to fix everything, it doesn't qualify as "TLC" anymore.

So no, the only thing you can do with bad translations, is throwing them out of the window and re-doing everything from scratch.

 

But what if this was the one chance that game ever had for a translation? So the group quits and nobody ever touches that game again, the end? That's all well and good for people who can read it in Japanese anyway, but everyone else just gets to try their best with a text hooker and forget about a real translation?

It's not a chance to get a translation, but a bad translation. A crude, borderline-unreadable fanfic. And, like I stated earlier, it can't be fixed - it needs a re-translation, and that just won't happen. Nobody will touch it, because it would require just as much effort as working on something that wasn't translated at all.

 

When a VN doesn't have a TL, there is always a chance that a competent group could pick it up.

When a VN has a bad TL, it has no realistic chances of getting a proper TL.

 

That's all well and good for people who can read it in Japanese anyway, but everyone else can most definitely forget about a real translation. And people who won't swallow mistranslated BS, obviously won't even touch MTs (unlike a part of audience that accepts bad translations).

 

They're really interested in helping out but their output is what you would term as a Bad Translation.

What do?

I mean yes the first and most obvious response is 'quit'.

 

But, are they actually helping out? Because they do plenty of harm - not only they ruin the VN, but also reduce the chances of it ever getting a proper TL to zero.

 

Imagine such situation:

Somebody is sick. Very Nice Person with absolutely no medical knowledge gives him some random drugs. Those actually worsen patient's condition and end up killing him. Was the Very Nice Person helpful? He really tried, but his incompetence caused far more harm than good...

 

What would you do?

Tell that Very Nice Person that he is doing great job and watch the patient die? Encourage him to continue and start digging a grave in the mean time? Or, as you suggested - desperately try to treat the harmful side-effects of the drugs he is administering, so that the patient won't die, but "merely" end up as a paralyzed vegetable?

 

No. The first and most obvious response that you mentioned, is the only response that actually makes sense.

First - stop him from causing damage. This won't guarantee that the patient survives, but hey, at least he will have a chance.

Second - tell that Very Nice Person, that if he really wants to help, he should study medicine. Or do something that doesn't require specialist skills.

 

Translations work just like that. If somebody doesn't have the skills necessary to translate, their attempts will cause nothing but harm. Stopping them is the only option. If they really want to help, they should either put some more effort into studying, or try to do something else - editing, proofreading, hacking, whatever.

 

Misplaced effort can cause harm, and half-assed translations kill VNs.

 

The other thing, is when they try to transform a very japanese-specific reference into something "american" (or european, whatever, you know what I mean). A TL should stick to the culture the VN is centered around, not transform it becuase some people won't "get it". Clannad comes to mind as an example - alot of people cried and wailed at something that  was translated perfectly, but didn't make much sense to most readers, due to lack of cultural immersion. I took that reference and googled it, becuase I was one of the ones that had no idea what it meant, and waddya know - learning is power!

 

I hate localizations in general and Americanizations in particular. But in the end, the whole point of translating, is making things understandable for the Western reader. When said reader has to look a lot of things up, it will distract him form the story. I like the translations to be as faithful as possible and all, but there is a certain limit. Leaving references to an anime that's completely unknown on the West wouldn't make much sense, and some things are just impossible to translate to begin with. Also, not everything can be simply looked up on non-Japanese sites (like some weird 2ch slang for example).

Personally, I like to mention everything that ended up rewritten in TL-notes. That way, various obscure cultural references won't be getting in the way while reading, but people who care can still fine them.

[XReaper]

The shittiest translation can be brushed up with TLC and editing. If we just shrug and wash our hands of it well, then, I guess we just all should shut up and never request a translation for any game again because we aren't lifting a finger to help the people who are actually trying.

definitely not possible, when the editor isnt also the tlc  & i guess in that case he wont do the job.

no matter how good an editor may be, the utmost he´s able to do if the translation turns out to be garbage, is turning it into something which sounds well & smooth - but the result wont be satisfying at all, when all you get is some arkward stuff, that happens by chance to sound pleasent - basically a (completely) different story!

edit: @pabloc, nice example you made there.