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Kagura Douchuuki on Greenlight


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What would be the right word? I intended a political connotation, and I think that word captures it. Even if this isn't an ideological flashhpoint in Japan, it is in the West among eroge and noneroge fans alike.

Dovac has made a statement regarding Sekai Project's involvement in the release of Kagura Douchuuki.

Quote

We sent [Debonosu] the English description and offered help if they want us to help them. It's entirely up to them if they want us to help or they want to go solo. Knowing how companies in Osaka think there's a good possibility they'll go solo.

Source

So as it turns out, this release is currently motivated entirely by Debonosu.

I've posted an updated version of the article (NSFW) on ero-gaming news and reviews site LewdGamer.com.

H-RPG Kagura Douchuuki gets Greenlight for Censorship (Op-Ed) [NSFW]

The new version includes a completely new section "Steam: An opportunity and a threat to lewd gaming" that demonstrates how Steam is changing the face of professional eroge localization.

Edited by sanahtlig
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there´s anything possible, if you´re greedy enough to literally shit on such trivial things like quality & enjoyment. in the olden days those dudes would have been sent straight to the gallows, for their intention of making quick money with a clearly inferior product(s).

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Copy-paste of my latest blog entry:

 

I wrote this in response to a thoughtful commenter on Reddit.

I would not support a non-adult only English release of Kagura Douchuuki, with a purchase or otherwise. I would also encourage other eroge fans not to support whitewashing of titles where sexual content was an integral part of the original concept (i.e., this title and MoeNovel's If My Heart Had Wings).

 

Just because a story can be told without sex doesn't mean it should. Just because it's easier to promote a game without sexual content doesn't mean that sexual content should be removed for the sake of convenience. This isn't merely a matter of supply and demand. It's about faithfulness to the original concept of the work. As a developer, it's lazy and disingenuous to cut content just to maximize sales in a given territory, while leaving fans with no option to restore the content and enjoy the original experience. It's callous to turn one's back on fans who have been supporting the market all along so companies like Debonosu could have the opportunity to release games like Kagura Douchuuki on Steam.

I wrote this article to notify fans of the path Debonosu has embarked on, and hopefully to persuade Debonosu to change their minds. According to dovac (CEO of Sekai Project) our earnest pleas will fall on deaf ears (in his words, "They don't care"). But at least we'll have tried.

Should we support developers that "don't care"? I would say that, no, we shouldn't. And if Debonosu truly "doesn't care", then I would argue they don't deserve the support of you, me, or anyone else. And when a company truly doesn't care, that'll likely manifest in more than just needless content cuts; you'll see it in the slipshod way the localization is handled. Notice how the Greenlight campaign was started without any English description (which Sekai Project rushed to donate because they didn't want the black eye of the campaign for a prominent VN failing). Notice how Debonosu's single English comment was in broken English. Does that indicate to you that Debonosu is invested in making this release a success? Does that give you confidence that the final product will be professional quality?

I think if Debonosu doesn't start caring more pretty quick, this release will likely be a trainwreck that will cause gameplay VN fans to cringe for years to come (not unlike what's happened with MoeNovel's release of If My Heart Had Wings).

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Sigh, had this huge post written out - then I hit the back button. fudge it \("~")/

 

To put it lazily and simply - I would be far more likely to play a VN with rape content removed from it, then a vn with the rape content left in. (Bunny Black reminded me how much I despise it). In that sense, I am far more interested in this title right now, then I would have been otherwise.

 

Rape with serious context is one thing - it can be a powerful plot device, providing shock and anger - but just for faps? No thanks. Don't care at that point if it's not the "original concept", becuase from a personal perspective, that "original concept" is worse.

 

Now, having said that - I'm pretty skeptical about the quality of this thing anyway, I have a feeling its legiblity will be suspect. :makina:  As pointed out, it doesn't look like the dev's really care too much, other than to make a quick cash-grab from a new revenue source.

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To put it lazily and simply - I would be far more likely to play a VN with rape content removed from it, then a vn with the rape content left in. (Bunny Black reminded me how much I despise it). In that sense, I am far more interested in this title right now, then I would have been otherwise.

 

Rape with serious context is one thing - it can be a powerful plot device, providing shock and anger - but just for faps? No thanks. Don't care at that point if it's not the "original concept", becuase from a personal perspective, that "original concept" is worse.

The vast majority of the scenes are defeat rape--punishment (or consolation prize, depending on perspective) for being defeated.  The rape is part of the setting, and one of the reasons to send in female warriors is that they can be rescued if they fall in battle, whereas males would be killed on the spot.  I found the game's dialogue quite boring overall, but the H-scenes were actually interesting.

 

It's pretty easy to say "well I'd rather have only the content I want, and the content I don't want removed".  But if you're a fan of anime culture (if not, why are you here?), that's a really slippery slope.  Eroge and even anime contain all sorts of content that some people like and others don't.  Rape and loli sex are objectionable content in eroge, but if you widen the scope there's other content that people find objectionable even in mainstream anime: moe (tends to promote unsavory sexual stereotypes), fanservice (objectification of women), and lolis (sexualization of children, as well as middle schoolers).  Imagine if anime were forcibly "reimagined" to take out all of these elements before it reached your screen.  How happy would you be about that?  Would you be satisfied with all your anime being filtered by 4Kids before reaching you?  Just because there was popular demand for such censorship?  Do you champion the famous "reimaginations" that occurred with One Piece, Pokemon, and Sailor Moon?  Many in the West find the mere concept of pornography centered on high schoolers repugnant.  Are you willing to give up all erotic content that involves characters who appear to be high schoolers?

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You say the vast majority but.... even with that being the case, there's easily at least 5 rape scenes that aren't defeat-rape or something similar to that. The premise is that you go out to save the village women who were abducted by the Youkai, but you always arrive too late so you have a chance to experience a rape scene between the abducted woman and the youkai, with a follow up h-scene with the priest/someone the person loves and the person that was raped by the youkai. 

 

masterful writing

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You say the vast majority but.... even with that being the case, there's easily at least 5 rape scenes that aren't defeat-rape or something similar to that. The premise is that you go out to save the village women who were abducted by the Youkai, but you always arrive too late so you have a chance to experience a rape scene between the abducted woman and the youkai, with a follow up h-scene with the priest/someone the person loves and the person that was raped by the youkai. 

 

masterful writing

Good old Debonosu.  This is why I haven't actually finished any of their games yet.

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The vast majority of the scenes are defeat rape--punishment (or consolation prize, depending on perspective) for being defeated.  The rape is part of the setting, and one of the reasons to send in female warriors is that they can be rescued if they fall in battle, whereas males would be killed on the spot.  I found the game's dialogue quite boring overall, but the H-scenes were actually interesting.

 

It's pretty easy to say "well I'd rather have only the content I want, and the content I don't want removed".  But if you're a fan of anime culture (if not, why are you here?), that's a really slippery slope.  Eroge and even anime contain all sorts of content that some people like and others don't.  Rape and loli sex are objectionable content in eroge, but if you widen the scope there's other content that people find objectionable even in mainstream anime: moe (tends to promote unsavory sexual stereotypes), fanservice (objectification of women), and lolis (sexualization of children, as well as middle schoolers).  Imagine if anime were forcibly "reimagined" to take out all of these elements before it reached your screen.  How happy would you be about that?  Would you be satisfied with all your anime being filtered by 4Kids before reaching you?  Just because there was popular demand for such censorship?  Do you champion the famous "reimaginations" that occurred with One Piece, Pokemon, and Sailor Moon?  Many in the West find the mere concept of pornography centered on high schoolers repugnant.  Are you willing to give up all erotic content that involves characters who appear to be high schoolers?

 

Oh I'm well aware of my biast opinion, lol. :) It's easy for one to want what they want, and dismiss the rest. But from a netrual angle I would be upset to have "all" controvercial content wiped out just becuase it may offend sonebody.

 

Now, with that said - from me as just one guy, rather then for an ideal - I am willing to step on the rights of those that DO want "rape for faps of it" in their VNs. I admit it's selfish and hypocritical, but then again all humans are to one extent or another. : P Would I want that to spread further? to the point of a blanket censorship to anything considered controversial and/or involving "young adults"/"highschoolers" (air quotes, heh) of course not.

 

It's a flawed mindset, I know - but I boil it down to "yes means yes, no means no" and anything else that is considered controversial beyond that is acceptable ocntent and legitimate, because it involves only willing parties.

 

 

Though ultimately it's not something that can ever be resolved becuase "you can't make everyone happy". Someone will always take issue with something. It's a case of either accepting EVERYTHING, or removing EVERYTHING, to reach a major consesus - and even that would cuase dissent. lol. After all, those that want to be pleased, want to be pleased. Gotta love individuality. :sachi:

 

The best we can manage, is "live and let live" and even then some people can't even do that~

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  • 4 weeks later...

lol when the hell did this happen? Removing the sexual content from this game is removing a good chunk of the plot...no idea how they could possibly go about trying to sell this game. Even on steam uncensored if people look up the original game people are going to see some very objectionable content.

 

I was worried this would happen as a result of Steam and Kickstarter companies censoring the majority of the content in order to sell to the masses. This game in particular though has little story outside of monster/creatures attacking girls and some semi-decent gameplay both of which do nothing for the actual plot. 

 

I really think this is a bad game to get on steam outside of steam sure in steam...this one may actually cause problems.

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  • 1 month later...

Debonosu's has inserted English text into the game and updated the screenshots on the Steam Greenlight page.  I left another comment on top of the heap to remind them that the censorship issue isn't going to disappear just because they close their eyes.

 

HOFagIa.jpg

 

Unfortunately, they don't seem to understand the concept of spaces between words in the English language.

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Debonosu's has inserted English text into the game and updated the screenshots on the Steam Greenlight page.  I left another comment on top of the heap to remind them that the censorship issue isn't going to disappear just because they close their eyes.

 

HOFagIa.jpg

 

Unfortunately, they don't seem to understand the concept of spaces between words in the English language.

Well that's two comments then because I left a comment again as well...

 

The lack of polish in that screenshot is worrying. If the game is released like that it will get pounded by everyone if they were intelligent they would try to see if one of the big visual novel companies is willing to release their game. The way it's going it's going to be a disaster.

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I decided to try to appeal to Debonosu once more.  This time, I wrote company founder Kazue Yamamoto on Twitter.

 

@KAZUEYAMAMOTO でぼの巣製作所ファンの米国人です。でぼの巣のゲーム(英語訳)ほしいですが、神楽道中記はエロシーンが抜けたら、利点を失くしてと思います。18禁版下さいませんか?でぼの巣のゲームはとてもエロいですから、全年齢版は勿体無いです。
 
I'm an American fan of Debonosu.  I want Debonosu's games (in English), but if the H-scenes are removed I think the game will lose its selling point.  Can we get an 18+ version?  Debonosu's games are very erotic, so an all-ages version is a waste.
 
@KAZUEYAMAMOTO ユーザー数で言えばSteamが圧倒的に多いが、ファンとは訳が違います。どうか、ファンの期待を応えるください。全年齢ゲームはでぼの巣の本領じゃありません。ファンも、Steamのユーザーさんも、、そして貴方も、きっと分かるんでしょう、そのこと。
 
Steam has an overwhelming number of paying users, but they're not your fans.  Please, respond to the expectations of your fans.  All-ages games are not Debonosu's true specialty.  Your fans, Steam users, even you yourself surely understand that. 
 
@KAZUEYAMAMOTO 記事を書きました、楽道中記とでぼの巣と18禁版のこと。相当に人気でした。時間があったら読む価値があるかも知らない。
 
I wrote an article about Kagura Douchuuki, Debonosu, and an 18+ version.  It was fairly popular.  If you have time it might be worth reading.
 
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So Debonosu founder and artist Kazue Yamamoto actually responded.

 

@sanahtlig ご意見ありがとうございます。ゲームの良さをまず触れてもらう役割りでsteam販売したいとので是非、ゲームをプレイしてください。よろしくお願いします。m(_ _)m

https://twitter.com/KAZUEYAMAMOTO/status/637104908169187328

 

@sanahtlig Thank you for your perspective.  To show the merit of such games, we're first going to try selling them on Steam, so please give them a try.  [Japanese salutation implying a debt of gratitude and asking for continued support] m(_ _)m

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I'm getting a massive migraine, I remember a time in which I looked forward to fantranslations of visual novels. Than they started to be brought "offically" to the west and I thought, now I don't have to worry about projects being suddenly dropped and they should be relatively faster than fan projects!...... god, if the naive me of a few years ago knew what I now know...... well, first he would choose a different major.

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When I used to think about the future of vn's, I never used to take Steam into account; mainly because it was way too fresh. We couldn't foresee it will grow to become such a major player on the market and impact even the japanese game industry.

 

Should I be sad, or should I be happy? From one perspective, it's good to see japanese devs adjusting to the current needs and market, but being adjusted doesn't always mean "successful", or good. At the bottom of my heart, I crave for fully translated, adult games, without any sort of censoring or family-friendly pandering. I'd like for them to remain the same they used to be - true to themselves. On the other hand, it's more a matter of Steam policy and as we seen it, Steam remains flexible as well. There's a high possibility they might actually change their policies to allow certain 18+ games on board. Until then, we have to get used to devs confining their creativity in order to sell their games.

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Fruit JAM is trying to Greenlight a free demo about a masturbation club.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=503649142

 

They then link to the adult paid version in English on DLsite.

 

It'll be hilarious if Steam allows this.  So hilarious that I asked LewdGamer to interview them. {Please look forward to it.}

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So Debonosu finally responded on the Steam page regarding the censorship issues:

It is first challenge for us Debonosu works to bring our contents overseas and with Steam, too.
Content cuts obtain R18 expressions and their translation may cost a lot. 
We need to watch how Kagura Douchuuki goes on Steam as our first challenge here on global market.
We appreciate your understanding.
 
I'll attempt to translate:
This is our first attempt to release a game overseas, as well as on Steam.
The content cut from the non-adult version includes a large chunk of the game's text / voiced dialogue, and thus translating the cut scenes / licensing the voices could be expensive.
We want to see how well Kagura Douchuuki sells on Steam before deciding whether to sink further resources into it.
We appreciate your understanding.
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What I hear is, "It's too much money to bother, and we want to see if we can get a nice amount of cash from putting in the least amount of effort into delivering a shell of a game to our weeb target audience."  Man, I hope this bites them in the ass.  They really deserve it, in my opinion.

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I left the following comment on the Greenlight page:

 

I'm happy that you're interested in releasing your games in English, but releasing half a game just doesn't make any sense. If it fails, how will you interpret it? How can you distinguish between a failure because there's no market for the game vs. failure because the game was poorly translated and half the content was removed? If it succeeds, will it be because of the content cuts or despite them? What reason would you have to release an uncut version in either case? This is an experiment *that won't tell you anything*, and thus waiting for the result won't shed any new light on the situation.
 
As a fan of your games, I urge you to prioritize an uncut version over a gutted version. If you want to test the waters, release a free demo on Steam to see if there's interest in the full game. That makes more sense than what you're doing here.
 
MangaGamer does dual releases of a non-adult version on Steam, and then an adult version in their store all the time. According to them, both versions are profitable. JAST USA and Sekai Project do this also.
 
Don't you think it's kind of odd to say that translating the adult scenes could cost too much? That implies that the adult content makes up the bulk of the text / voiced dialogue. If that's the case, what exactly are you trying to sell here? A visual novel with the bulk of the novel element stripped out? Isn't that a disservice to the game's original concept, as well as to your fans who will end up missing out on the original experience?
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not sure of them understanding your message though, given that you´re speaking patterns are on a higher level, means look at their engrish shown on steam - compare to yours & then...
 

edit: still apretty messed up situation we have, despite your overall effords of proselytizing them to the better

edit2: kudos to you for (hopefully) having established a new partnership between fruitsjam & jast.

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So Debonosu has responded once more on the Greenlight page.

 

We are glad to have your suggestion, thank you so much.
 
Our games are built and foucused with the concept which players can
enjoy an adventure part with our own game system. 
 
And with Steam, we are now trying to see whether our game system
is successfully accepted in global market or not.
 
They gave us Greelit and with this fact, we presume our attempt
to be accepted here on Steam, to some extent.
 
We wish to ask you to cheer us for our new challenge with here on Steam.
 
Thank you. 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=448966774&tscn=1441356795

 

My Engrish -> English translation:

Thank you for your suggestions.

 

Our games feature a unique hybrid between gameplay, anime-style visuals, and text-driven narrative.

 

With this Steam release, we are attempting to assess whether there is a market for games like this overseas.

 

Our game was Greenlit on Steam, and thus we assume there is some demand for the game concept we have presented: a non-adult visual novel / gameplay hybrid.

 

We hope you'll cheer us on as we bravely navigate uncharted waters here on Steam.

 

Thank you.

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Thanks for translating the answers sanahtlig. This  game is popping up in my flowchart but I can't really interpret if I like it or not. The gameplay is looking a bit plain and repetitive. But I am willing to try it. But the information I found is that it is like Monster Quest or Raidy. the H content appears if you lose a battle against a monster? Am I correct?

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