TLWiki split with JAST

[Tay]

Not sure if anyone else here has noticed/commented on this, but the most recent patch released by Moogy (Dra-Koi) had some interesting news:

Release Notes

Nitro+ was willing to let us release this game officially, but JAST needs to work through the rest of their current Nitro+ catalogue before they'd be able to release Dra+KoI. Makoto estimated that this would take at least a year; possibly a year and a half or more. I am unwilling to wait this long to release a translation that was finished months ago, so here you go. Additionally, for a variety of reasons, I will likely not be working with JAST in the future. Hopefully this will let me free up some time (and muster up the energy, really) to work on some fan translations I've been interested in starting up for a while now, but who knows what the future will hold.

Say what you will about Moogy, but he's one of the best translators out there, and this is big news for the community. Granted: TLWiki didn't always partner with JAST (goes both ways), but they have had a long-standing relationship.

In any case, I think we can all look forward to more releases and good work from TLWiki, and now hopefully in a more timely manner.

Note: As I read this, I had a little deja vu. Same principle, two big community pillars making the same argument about bloated release schedules negatively impacting the community.

[sanahtlig]

Note: As I read this, I had a little deja vu. Same principle, two big community pillars making the same argument about bloated release schedules negatively impacting the community

Ha, I had the same thought, but I drew a parallel to Amaterasu. I also found that TL note curious. It'll be interesting to see if such incidents continue to drive a wedge between the fan translation and official localization communities.

[Beato]

I wonder what'll happen to the Trample on Schatten and Seinarukana translations.

Seinarukana isn't being translated by Moogy so that should be fine, but Moogy was translating Schatten wasn't he? (Or maybe he finished it already?)

[Steve]

TLWiki guys do very good translations so if this means more active projects, its a good thing. (even though I don't like how they bash other TLs, they actually make stuff done so one can't dislike them)

And if they would be forced to wait 1 or more years to release TL that is done, it is the stupidest thing that could happen so I'm glad it went like this.

We already talked about how long is required for commercial TL and I was saying its not that long, few months should be sufficient.

http://vntls.tindabo...ni-koishiteiru/ is a prime example of how much time TL needs - its not a short VN, on EGS average is 20h, that's like 80% of DCIII.

And they have 65% TLd and 40% edited in 3 weeks - without being paid.

So respect to those guys and also respect to Moogy for seeing that it is fans who want the translation and if there are things slowing the release, they need to be removed from the equation.

[shcboomer]

I'm glad he chose to release it himself and not to wait for JAST. Although, it is interesting to note that JAST probably doesn't mind all that much since they have to finish their backlog. Apparently the backlog is based on a catalog that they sent out so they need to complete those games first before moving on to something new.

[sanahtlig]

Dra Koi isn't voiced; that's probably a downside from JAST's viewpoint since that's a standard feature that their customers expect.

We already talked about how long is required for commercial TL and I was saying its not that long, few months should be sufficient.

http://vntls.tindabo...ni-koishiteiru/ is a prime example of how much time TL needs - its not a short VN, on EGS average is 20h, that's like 80% of DCIII.

And they have 65% TLd and 40% edited in 3 weeks - without being paid.

So respect to those guys and also respect to Moogy for seeing that it is fans who want the translation and if there are things slowing the release, they need to be removed from the equation.

Again, this is a really simplistic consumer-centric viewpoint that ignores the practical reality of business in this market. Localization is more than just translation. It's a negotiated license deal, a collaborative effort between multiple businesses. When one or more parties decide that the collaboration is low priority, progress grinds to a crawl. You seek to streamline this process by simply ignoring the right of one or more parties to participate. Let's ignore the legal implications--If JAST or Mangagamer did that even once, their partners would jump ship on them. In short, such a viewpoint represents a fundamental lack of respect for creators rooted in consumer entitlement--the idea that the demands of the consumers trump all other concerns, no matter how unreasonable or self-centered such demands might be. Whenever I see this argument repeated, I always think of the angry Walmart customer raging at the poor person at the customer service desk for a problem that was probably his own fault. Using the threat of piracy as leverage to coercively enact change strikes me as incredibly selfish ("I'll get what I want regardless, but I'll only pay you for it if you agree to my demands"). It puzzles me how people can take this stance and feel like they're taking the moral highground--rather than simply being vengefully subversive (as I see it).

[Guest]

there's actually two different layers of TLwiki, there is TLWiki just as a spot to host your translations and then there is some of the people who ARE hosted on TLWiki who all decided in 2009 that they work joint with JAST. but the site itself is not in collaboration with JAST, just some of its ppl who were translating there. also one of the reasons they stated in 2009 for the partnership was to 'increase the speed of releases'. not many ppl remember that anymore.

I just wanted to add that moogy did hack into fuwanovel's servers about 12 months ago and deleted everything and then sabotaged the configs so that u cant even SSH in? u guys prolly dont know this. and the reason why he did it was bcuz i criticized one of his blog posts XD

(Warning: heavy rant regarding tlwiki)

The culture at TLWiki REEKS of 4chan.

Speaking from a person who's hung in their IRC channel for over a year, it is truly an awful culture. The WHOLE day, they spend in there talking shit about other groups or other translators. (they hate all other TL projects, they see it as taking the spotlight away from them)

If you say one thing out of line with what they think is right, you are asking to be raped. you will be treated like a retard. the entire culture is anyone who tries to do anything productive, is bullied. dont try to start projects, u will be laughed at and publicly mocked. dont ask dumb questions, u retard. "u doing translations? we hope yours will fucking fail."

And just for your information, the WHOLE of the VN community was like that including places like mirror moon or insani. (with the exception of tiny segments at hongfire). this was before there was such thing as a fuwanovel. If you want to put a thread up on gemot forums or vndb to advertise yourself, people will tell you to fuck off. (they will usually say something like, u didnt work hard enough be4 posting here) I've seen so many new ppl drop in on the forums or IRC to ask for help, just to be greeted by scornful, CACKLING faces, faces of ppl who can't wait to show you they are intellectually superior. They also love to exercise power over you, which they think they have a lot of because they think they are the only VN community in existence. (theyre actually only about 2000-4000 big. a tiny segment) The topic of Japanese is almost certainly about how they are better at it than you are and never actually about teaching each other on how to improve.

that was one of the reasons why i even started this place. because i knew the culture was the number 1 problem in VNTL land. (it does not permit people to advertise themselves.)

fortunately, most translators are not like that, most TLs are normal people. they try to have nothing to do with these people. they stay the hell away from the VN community (bcuz it is awful). Most groups typically operate on their own and do not speak to any1 else in the space.

it was long years of exposure to these types of people that i adopted a much more aggressive personality (because there was no other way to survive).

Actually at the beginning when I first arrived, I was shocked, bcuz i didn't know ppl think like this. And it is still true for the people who run vndb, encubed, tlwiki, not to mention within a number of TL projects, the people still think like this. So be careful where you apply as editor or you will have a horrible first experience.

[Steve]

Again, this is a really simplistic consumer-centric viewpoint that ignores the practical reality of business in this market. Localization is more than just translation. It's a negotiated license deal, a collaborative effort between multiple businesses. When one or more parties decide that the collaboration is low priority, progress grinds to a crawl. You seek to streamline this process by simply ignoring the right of one or more parties to participate. Let's ignore the legal implications--If JAST or Mangagamer did that even once, their partners would jump ship on them. In short, such a viewpoint represents a fundamental lack of respect for creators rooted in consumer entitlement--the idea that the demands of the consumers trump all other concerns, no matter how unreasonable or self-centered such demands might be. Whenever I see this argument repeated, I always think of the angry Walmart customer raging at the poor person at the customer service desk for a problem that was probably his own fault. Using the threat of piracy as leverage to coercively enact change strikes me as incredibly selfish ("I'll get what I want regardless, but I'll only pay you for it if you agree to my demands"). It puzzles me how people can take this stance and feel like they're taking the moral highground--rather than simply being vengefully subversive (as I see it).

EDIT: turned out to be long again (how unexpected from me) so ill spoiler the response so it doesn't OT here

Yes it is consumer-centric viewpoint because consumers are the people who pay the money.

Maybe its the difference between business methods I was taught and are often used in countries around here in EU and the ways it is in the US from what I see some companies doing - When I see how companies like EA, Microsoft and others slap their customers with always-on DRM.

Here it is customer who makes demands and customer who gets the better side of the bargain. I wasn't satisfied with the service of my internet and cable provider so I called there that I would like a better deal or end of my subscription. And of course they offered me double the internet speed (triple upload) and some channels I didn't have previously like HBO or discovery for the same price I was paying previously. I could do that because there is competition between several such providers here so I can just say that I will go with the competition instead if they don't give me better deal and even though I wouldn't get better deal with competition, they would lose a customer and have 0 money from me instead of any money.

And the same way I view VN translation, fan TL is a competition and companies who decide to do localization need to view them as competition because that's what they are.

And by C&Ding fan TL instead of providing better service than the fan TL they are just trying to get rid of competition and have monopoly.

Actually one company here operates that way here, they have almost 100% monopoly for all electricity distribution in country and everyone hates them because they set the price as they want and you cannot make a deal with them - you either have electricity or you don't, as simple as that, no discount prices or anything. And its quite expensive here thanks to that.

And even if the competition are these fan translating "pirates", they are still competition and should be viewed as such. And as with any business, you will be compared to competition. Whether it is fair or not is a different story but customers don't look at it, they care about the product. As I said I don't know exactly how it works with the licensing and why it takes so long, but from consumer viewpoint I can tell they should work on speeding that up.

That is the way I do business. And I don't do it only as a consumer, I work for business that provides ebooks on the internet, there is quite huge competition in that field and lot of it is piracy too, but few clever things and customers want your service over others.

And same way I was doing my business of selling gold in wow, competing against Chinese guys with 3 times lower the price than I had to have (otherwise it would not be profitable).

Well went off the rail but the point is, my mindset when doing business is that customer is the priority and he needs to feel like he is always right and he needs to feel he is getting a good deal. And it is the business trying to win the customer, not the other way around. That's how I treated my customers and that's how I treat customers of the business I work for now.

And the same treatment I expect when I am the customer myself, I expect to be able to make demands and to get good deals that are good for me.

So you might say that it is subversive to think like that and that I MUST take in consideration what they have to do to provide the product - but in fact I don't have to and other consumers don't have to either. Consumers care about the product itself, not the process.

Maybe I seem like bad consumer by having high demands... but consumer is consumer and should be cared about.

Pirates are consumers too and you can see some indie developers helping pirates with bugs in their game. They could just forget about them completely as they didn't pay anything... but they didn't and they care, they see piracy as competition and people pirating their game as actual potential customers. So why not get on their good side and who knows, they might buy your product or the next one you make. And I like that approach.

So yeah there are these evil companies who force you their product. And there are good companies who listen to consumer demands and try their best to fulfill them and earn trust of people.

I hope VN localization companies take the good company route as I see that as the route to victory.

in the end I just think we have too different opinions to agree these matters.

[Tay]

there's actually two different layers of TLwiki, there is TLWiki just as a spot to host your translations and then there is some of the people who ARE hosted on TLWiki who all decided in 2009 that they work joint with JAST. but the site itself is not in collaboration with JAST, just some of its ppl who were translating there. also one of the reasons they stated in 2009 for the partnership was to 'increase the speed of releases'. not many ppl remember that anymore.

Good point, I forgot to mention this at the start. The point I was finding so interesting was that Moogy split with JAST in part because he found the ineffectual publishing schedule to be ridiculous. Reminded me of your own points against Mangagamer.

Moogy's history with Fuwanovel isn't well known, so you're right that the info you posted (not quoted here) will probably surprise people.

[solidbatman]

I just wanted to add that moogy did hack into fuwanovel's servers about 12 months ago and deleted everything and then sabotaged the configs so that u cant even SSH in? u guys prolly dont know this. and the reason why he did it was bcuz i criticized one of his blog posts XD

(Warning: heavy rant regarding tlwiki)

It never ceases to amaze me how petty, and thin skinned people can be... and from what I can tell, the big shots in VNs, much like anime translations, are completely in love with themselves and act like total jerks.

Sorry to go off topic like that. Back on topic, if JastUSA has the rights to the novel, could they shut this down?

[Tay]

Sorry to go off topic like that. Back on topic, if JastUSA has the rights to the novel, could they shut this down?

Since he's already published it, they'd have to order a cease and desist to him and order him to take it down. Whether or not they do, however, will be based on their past relationship, etc. I don't think it'll happen.

But, as Mangagamer recently proved, they absolutely COULD.

[Mephisto]

There is so much drama I don't even know where to start.

[shcboomer]

Since he's already published it, they'd have to order a cease and desist to him and order him to take it down. Whether or not they do, however, will be based on their past relationship, etc. I don't think it'll happen.

But, as Mangagamer recently proved, they absolutely COULD.

I doubt anything will happen here, with a full release and a pretty good track record. Not to mention it was a short game from a part of a fandisk anyways. We can all hope nothing happens, but if something does it has already been too distributed to stop entirely.

[RusAnon]

Sorry to go off topic like that. Back on topic, if JastUSA has the rights to the novel, could they shut this down?

You cannot really shut down such stuff once its out in the wild. There are torrents with it all around the world now. Plus it would be amplified by Streisand effect.

[Tay]

You cannot really shut down such stuff once its out in the wild. There are torrents with it all around the world now. Plus it would be amplified by Streisand effect.

Good point. A C&D could demand TLWiki remove it from their site, though, which would serve a symbolic point.

Since JAST and TLWiki have had such a long and (presumably?) positive relationship, and considering the size of the game (and assuming their split didn't cause lots of bad blood between them), it's unlikely anything will come from this.

[Guest]

i actually think they are not in bad terms for something petty like that (unless moogy sold his rights to Pete already and now he's not honouring it). it doesnt seem like the thing that peter payne would get upset about. i assume they 're still in talking mode. not really a split.

[Guest]

forgot: also bcuz dra+koi is non-voiced, so maybe Peter doesnt have an interest in it

[sanahtlig]

it was long years of exposure to these types of people that i adopted a much more aggressive personality (because there was no other way to survive).

Actually at the beginning when I first arrived, I was shocked, bcuz i didn't know ppl think like this. And it is still true for the people who run vndb, encubed, tlwiki, not to mention within a number of TL projects, the people still think like this. So be careful where you apply as editor or you will have a horrible first experience.

Zalas from encubed seems pretty mellow. VNDB has some strange rules (they're really gung-ho about censorship) but those in charge seem well-intentioned. Moogy is well, Moogy.

Responding to intense criticism with aggressiveness is an understandable but probably maladaptive response. Even bullies can make good points, and completely closing oneself off from perceived threats to one's own ideas leads to fanaticism. One of the dangers of the Internet is that it's easier than ever before to surround ourselves with likeminded individuals and forget that alternative schools of thought even exist. This eventually leads to polarized communities that become so self-absorbed they can't even meaningfully communicate with each other anymore (e.g., political parties). Perspective comes from accepting that multiple points of view are necessary to fully understand complex issues.

[meru]

Good point. A C&D could demand TLWiki remove it from their site, though, which would serve a symbolic point.

Since JAST and TLWiki have had such a long and (presumably?) positive relationship, and considering the size of the game (and assuming their split didn't cause lots of bad blood between them), it's unlikely anything will come from this.

The whole thing is kind of confusing really.

So moogy releases a fan translation, which is something that most people would get C&D'd for. But he's part of the legit TL team, so that makes it ok? Or are Jast actually pissed off but not making it public?

It's hard to know. But anyway, I think it's a good thing that someone within the industry is making some sort of a statement about how looooooong it takes for some things to come out in English.

Plus his TL for Dra+Koi is fantastic and I'm really glad I had the opportunity to read it.. if it had been released commercially they might have tried to overcharge for it considering it's so short, and I probably would never have got to play it. Actually, are there any really short titles that have been released at a reasonable price? ..sorry for drifting off topic a bit there!

[sanahtlig]

So moogy releases a fan translation, which is something that most people would get C&D'd for. But he's part of the legit TL team, so that makes it ok? Or are Jast actually pissed off but not making it public?

I definitely think there was a fallout involved. Moogy worked with JAST, which works with Nitro+, and clearly Nitro+ didn't agree to the "unofficial release" as Moogy would've mentioned it if that was the case. JAST probably isn't making a big deal of it since Dra Koi wasn't that important to them or Nitro+. If Moogy were to start working on say, Muramasa, I doubt JAST would stay silent.

In any case, there's no point in C&D'ing a finished translation. I don't think Age C&D'd Amaterasu's Muv Luv release.

[Guest]

Zalas from encubed seems pretty mellow. VNDB has some strange rules (they're really gung-ho about censorship) but those in charge seem well-intentioned. Moogy is well, Moogy.

Responding to intense criticism with aggressiveness is an understandable but probably maladaptive response. Even bullies can make good points, and completely closing oneself off from perceived threats to one's own ideas leads to fanaticism. One of the dangers of the Internet is that it's easier than ever before to surround ourselves with likeminded individuals and forget that alternative schools of thought even exist. This eventually leads to polarized communities that become so self-absorbed they can't even meaningfully communicate with each other anymore (e.g., political parties). Perspective comes from accepting that multiple points of view are necessary to fully understand complex issues.

i know. thx for the advice.

I dont have a monopoly on the truth. i am just 1 more person on this planet trying hard to grasp at the truth bcuz it is so hard to find now. otherwise i wouldnt have spent 4 months non-stop researching copyright. i wasnt satisfied w/ what i was taught.

unfortunately the VN community is not the word 'bullies'. the VN community is really 4chan culture. people who love superiority over others. particularly intellectual superiority. They crave that shit. they get a high from it. It's orgasmic for them.

They also ignore all of my points and still believe theyve won the argument. they also think ad hominem is logic. they also think consensus in numbers IS logic. you can't win against someone like that!

[sanahtlig]

I've seen some of your arguments on VNDB and VNTLS. Unfortunately, disrespect will be met with disrespect. Whether your ideals are right or wrong, you seek to topple the existing "order" by making piracy as easy as possible. with the idea that if piracy becomes pervasively accepted, copyright reform will follow by necessity. In the process, you disregard the wishes of fan translators who don't wish their works to be associated with warez, and you disregard the wishes of developers, who'd rather not have their works pirated. If you were just using your words to convince people, not many would care; it's your subversive actions that garner you such antipathy. You disrespect your counterparts, so they respond by ridiculing and ostracizing you. Yes, some of them are just jerks. But you've pissed off a lot of people who aren't jerks too.

You don't actually NEED to subvert copyright law via piracy to achieve your goals. You could instead push for crowdfunding as an alternative model that could coexist with and maybe eventually replace the IP model. However change will not come quickly, crowdfunding has its own limitations, and the incompatibility of the two models will make progress in the VN translation scene difficult (since VNs are developed in Japan using the IP model). The key concept here would be pitching crowdfunding as an alternative, not the single *right* model that others must accept or else (which is what currently earns you scorn).

Obviously it's rather unlikely you're going to have a sudden change of heart and dismantle Fuwanovel (and personally, I don't have a problem with Fuwanovel in its current form). But the following would at least minimize the people you antagonize in your pursuit of an IP-free world:

1) Rethink distribution of fan-translated works. Either scrap the idea of pre-packaged translations, or at least credit the translators and post a link to their page. Make it easy to buy the originals for those so inclined.

2) Give up on distributing localized titles (localized using the IP model). You could convince entrepreneurs not to use the IP model (or discourage end users from supporting it with words or crowdfunded alternatives) rather than subvert existing IP.