Dark Blue Intro Scene Translation

[Decay]

Hmm, yeah, I suppose I wouldn't have had any major complaints if the Ayakashibito translation was was sold. It would probably have to be a little bit more polished but it's pretty solid overall and on par with or better than a lot of the current official stuff.

[sanahtlig]

The posts you all made were much more detailed than I was expecting, and they were quite interesting to read.  Now here comes the twist you likely saw coming.

 

The games you listed in the Unacceptable category--based on your statements, I take this as a declaration that these translations should not exist.  But why?  What harm are they doing?  The original Japanese version still exists.  Another fan group could come along and retranslate the game, if they wanted to.  The availability of these poor translations simply gives readers more options.  Who are you or anyone else to limit the choices of others based on your own preconceptions of what constitutes a "good enough" translation, no matter how objective your criteria might be?  VNDB catalogues all VNs (as far as I know), regardless of their quality.  It doesn't exclude titles no matter how bad they are, and the vast majority are actually being sold to unsuspecting buyers.  Why should translations be any different?

 

I'll at least buy the argument that simple unedited machine translations deserve no recognition; that doesn't add any value for anyone over what could be achieved by simply installing a machine translator oneself.

[Decay]

I didn't see that coming because now you're suddenly claiming I said a thing I didn't actually say. 

[sanahtlig]

I didn't see that coming because now you're suddenly claiming I said a thing I didn't actually say. 

Maybe you weren't.  But I'm pretty sure that's what pabloc was saying, at least.  And I'm pretty sure most of the people complaining about the Monobeno project would agree.  If you choose to disagree, then your opinion on the matter shall be registered as such.  Just beware that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[Conjueror]

The posts you all made were much more detailed than I was expecting, and they were quite interesting to read.  Now here comes the twist you likely saw coming.

 

The games you listed in the Unacceptable category--based on your statements, I take this as a declaration that these translations should not exist.  But why?  What harm are they doing?  The original Japanese version still exists.  Another fan group could come along and retranslate the game, if they wanted to.  The availability of these poor translations simply gives readers more options.  Who are you or anyone else to limit the choices of others based on your own preconceptions of what constitutes a "good enough" translation, no matter how objective your criteria might be?  VNDB catalogues all VNs (as far as I know), regardless of their quality.  It doesn't exclude titles no matter how bad they are, and the vast majority are actually being sold to unsuspecting buyers.  Why should translations be any different?

 

I'll at least buy the argument that simple unpolished machine translations deserve no recognition; that doesn't add any value for anyone over what could be achieved by simply installing a machine translator oneself.

 

Because it is an insult to the author who poured his soul into the work to turn it into a laughing before the whole world. I doubt you'd like someone to rewrite your novels in a way that the whole world would end up associating your name with poor writing. And it's bad for visual novels as a genre of fiction in general; they already have enough infamy without terrible writing further sullying their name. Not to mention that a translation, however bad, lessens the game's market value lowering its chances to get an official localization considerably. I don't know how his work measures, but if Ixrec hadn't picked Inganock, for better or worse, Koestl would probably be translating it now.

 

In other words, if you are picking a translation project you better make sure you can do it justice, or you might very well ruin the future of that VN.

[Decay]

If you bought a VN and then felt like you wasted your money because the translation is so awful, that's unacceptable. I guess I'll say that THOSE translations shouldn't exist, because they're actually harmful in how they're predative on people who don't fully research a product before buying. People will lose out on their money buying an awful product. 

 

If you downloaded a fan translation and it's barely understandable gibberish, that's also unacceptable. I will say that it probably shouldn't have been made, that the creators probably wasted their time, and that nobody should read it, but I won't claim it doesn't have the right to exist, and people do have the right to read it if that's what they want to do. But the community has the right to warn others about its quality and to expect better from translators. 

 

Like, I also think people have the right to be racist. I wish they wouldn't be, and society should work to change the minds of racist individuals and reform racist policies, but I'm not into thought policing and no one should be forced to hold any particular stance. People can also be gluttons and become grotesquely overweight. I personally think that's unacceptable and they should strive to better themselves, but if they don't want to, forcing them to would be wrong. I suppose on a conceptual level these are similar issues. 

[sanahtlig]

If you downloaded a fan translation and it's barely understandable gibberish, that's also unacceptable. I will say that it probably shouldn't have been made, that the creators probably wasted their time, and that nobody should read it, but I won't claim it doesn't have the right to exist, and people do have the right to read it if that's what they want to do. But the community has the right to warn others about its quality and to expect better from translators. 

Welcome to the Allied team.  We more or less agree.  I believe a resource ought to exist that allows people to judge the quality of a translation at a glance and determine if they want to buy/play a given title or not.  I may or may not protect you from pabloc's divine wrath, so be forewarned.

 

It's also important that we establish that persecution of subpar translation projects is conceptually similar to Nazi persecution of the Jews, and that poor translation projects that proceed despite the best advice of the community are like morbidly obese people that don't take proper care of themselves.  Only by showing that everyone on all sides is an idiot will these debates finally die down.

 

 

Because it is an insult to the author who poured his soul into the work to turn it into a laughing before the whole world. I doubt you'd like someone to rewrite your novels in a way that the whole world would end up associating your name with poor writing. 

 

Allow me to quote a comment I made on the relevant blog post:

Fan translations almost by definition don't respect the wishes of the creators.  It's a bit silly to say that a bad translation respects them less when no respect existed to begin with.

 

 

You're right, I might not be very happy that someone was making unauthorized translations of my work and sullying my name in the process.  But the problem is that it was unauthorized and I had no say in the matter!

 

And it's bad for visual novels as a genre of fiction in general; they already have enough infamy without terrible writing further sullying their name. Not to mention that a translation, however bad, lessens the game's market value lowering its chances to get an official localization considerably. I don't know how his work measures, but if Ixrec hadn't picked Inganock, for better or worse, Koestl would probably be translating it now.

 

In other words, if you are picking a translation project you better make sure you can do it justice, or you might very well ruin the future of that VN.

 

 

Nowadays fan translations don't necessarily spoil the opportunity for an official release.  As long as the game can be released on Steam or promoted on Kickstarter, it's still marketable to a different audience than the one that typically uses fan translations.  Let's face it: fan translations are used by a pretty exclusive audience, most of whom have little or no interest in supporting official releases.  If you're a "wizard" who can figure out how to patch these games and set your system locale correctly, you're already pretty far down the rabbit hole.  You're interested in VNs, and one or two flops probably won't be enough to deter you.

 

In addition, your argument about the image of VNs as a genre being potentially sullied by poor translations only applies in an information-sparse or attention-sparse situation.  The availability of poor translations in itself poses no threat; the threat is ignorance of good titles (the value of the original work modified by the quality of the translation).  The solution isn't forbidding poor translations, but rather making titles people would want to play more accessible.  See my comments to Decay about a translation quality resource for one potential solution to this issue.

[Chuee]

I'll at least buy the argument that simple unpolished machine translations deserve no recognition; that doesn't add any value for anyone over what could be achieved by simply installing a machine translator oneself.

 

A translation pretty much has to be that for VNDB to remove it. 

[Conjueror]

Nowadays fan translations don't necessarily spoil the opportunity for an official release.

 

This, unfortunately, only applies to hugely popular games like Clannad, Higurashi or Fate Stay Night. I understand your logic, but the current official stance of localization companies is that they won't touch games that have already been translated. It might change if visual novels grow more popular in the west but we probably won't be seeing many re-translations of old games in the near future. So thank god Ayakashibito actually got a good translation.

 

 

Fan translations almost by definition don't respect the wishes of the creators.  It's a bit silly to say that a bad translation respects them less when no respect existed to begin with.

 

So if you're stealing his work already why not also ruin it and spit the author in the face in the process, eh? I think you should have at least a semblance of respect toward the work you are translating, like, as a human being. Translators, who don't, deserve to go to jail, much less be allowed to publish their work.

[sanahtlig]

This, unfortunately, only applies to hugely popular games like Clannad, Higurashi or Fate Stay Night. I understand your logic, but the current official stance of localization companies is that they won't touch games that have already been translated.

JAST is and has long been willing to re-release *good* translations when they see an audience.  Do you think they'd be any less willing to re-translate poorly translated games, if they saw a market for it and the developer was willing / insisted?  The merit of the original game and a relationship with the developer are what matters most to JAST, I think.

 

Mangagamer's stance is evolving.  They stated in the past that existing fan translations were a deal breaker that sabotaged the market for an official release.  Then Steam came along.  Keep in mind that Mangagamer has also stated that nukige didn't sell well.  And that sales of all-ages titles were disappointing.  And that moege licensing was unsustainable.  Let's just say that Mangagamer has a ways to go in understanding their own audience, much less the VN market.

 

I think you should have at least a semblance of respect toward the work you are translating, like, as a human being. Translators, who don't, deserve to go to jail, much less be allowed to publish their work.

I think you've just espoused a very radical viewpoint that might even give pabloc pause, which is impressive in its own right.  Besides, information deserves no respect.  Only people deserve respect.  Do you believe that I should go to jail for burning a book (that I own) too?  What about a flag?

[Conjueror]

JAST is and has long been willing to re-release *good* translations when they see an audience.

 

Well, seeing this "audience" is the issue here, smaller fan-translated VNs don't seem to garner enough attention to warrant a re-translation. I am not at liberty to reveal details, but I'm currently working with one of the three big VN localizers in the States and they are more than willing to go out of their way to look for rights for VNs I personally like, but games with an existing fan-tl are a no-go.

 

I think you've just espoused a very radical viewpoint that might even give pabloc pause, which is impressive in its own right.  Besides, information deserves no respect.  Only people deserve respect.  Do you believe that I should go to jail for burning a book (that I own) too?  What about a flag?

 

Sorry, that came out wrong. While I do think that a work of art transcends its creator and warrants respect by itself, I'm not some lunatic who'd put people in jail for burning books or flags (though I heard some countries do outlaw that). What I meant is that fan-tls infringe on copyright and thus are a crime, and if you are going to go out of your way to break the law, then at least do it for a good reason. I can forgive a poor mother stealing eggs to feed her starving children, but a bunch of drunk guys who steal the same eggs only to use the said starving children for their target practice deserve to go to jail. Starving children being western VN fans.

[sanahtlig]

Well, seeing this "audience" is the issue here, smaller fan-translated VNs don't seem to garner enough attention to warrant a re-translation. I am not at liberty to reveal details, but I'm currently working with one of the three big VN localizers in the States and they are more than willing to go out of their way to look for rights for VNs I personally like, but games with an existing fan-tl are a no-go.

At best, that proves that fan translations damage the prospects of an official release.  That's a general argument against fan translations, not poor fan translations.

 

I don't count Sekai Project's assessment as authoritative.  They haven't been around long enough, released enough titles, nor collected enough sales data to do more than speculate.  My argument still stands that the Steam VN community and the fan translation community don't show enough overlap for fan translations to significantly impact Steam sales.  Until I see data to the contrary, I consider the bogeyman of fan translation sabotaging Steam sales as speculative nonsense.  When the companies in question eventually realize this (it could take a while due to risk aversion), they'll change their tune (or maybe they won't, because fan translations still compete with professional releases for people's attention).

 

fan-tls infringe on copyright and thus are a crime, and if you are going to go out of your way to break the law, then at least do it for a good reason. I can forgive a poor mother stealing eggs to feed her starving children, but a bunch of drunk guys who steal the same eggs only to use the said starving children for their target practice deserve to go to jail. Starving children being western VN fans.

That's... a highly romanticized metaphor that isn't really applicable at all.  Fan translations infringe on copyright and ignore the wishes of creators.  There is no moral imperative that makes this defensible.  No one has a right to fictional content.  Entertainment is not a basic human need.  The "starving children" are willingly consuming the eggs being "thrown" at them.  At best you can argue that VNs are an art form that deserves recognition.  But arguing that fan translations damage the art form is silly.  That's like saying that me drawing a crude sketch of a painting and distributing it around damages the original.  Any idiot will know that my sketch isn't the original.  Any idiot would be able to tell from the voices that the VN wasn't originally in English, and therefore they're not enjoying the original experience!

 

From a basic information freedom standpoint, bad information shouldn't be censored.  It should be supplemented with good information, because in the end greater information freedom results in better societal outcomes than suppressing the negative impacts of bad information through censorship.

[astro]

Leaving stuff out doesn't make a translation any less wrong. It feels like you left the stuff you had trouble translating out, and that's just as bad as a misTL. These are bolded.

 

There are also some word choice errors and blatant misTLs. These are underlined.

 

Don't worry though, you've only posted less than 1 minute of gameplay. As such, the points below might not be a clear indication of your overall translation quality.

 

Dark Blue Intro Scene Translation

 

？？？「私も、最後に君に伝えておこう」

Old man: I have one last thing to tell you.

その男は、革張りの椅子に腰掛けながら、青年へと向けてそう口を開いた。

While sitting in the leather chair facing the young man, the man opened his mouth.

？？？「なんですか？」

Young man: And that is?

？？？「確かに呪いなどがあったかどうかはわからん」

Old man: Whether it was a sort of curse or not, I don't know for certain.

？？？「だが、現に我々は狂い、自分を保つためにあらゆる方法を模索して来た」

Old man: But what I do know is we've been groping in confusion for a way to preserve ourselves.

？？？「その結果がこれなのだ」

Old man: And the result is this.

何ら恥じることなく、男はそう断言する。

Unashamedly, the man declared so.

正面にいる青年に対して、恥じる様子などひとつとしてなかった。

Facing the young man in front of him, there wasn't a hint of shame in his visage.

？？？「自分達は最善を尽くしたと？」

Young man: "We did our best", eh? (tone)

？？？「意志が弱いなりに、我々はやれるだけのことをやってきた」

Old man: In our weak-willed way, we did what we could.

？？？「そういうことだ」

Old man: That is all.

？？？「……失礼します」

Young man: I've heard enough.

もう話すことはないと言わんばかりに、青年が部屋のドアのほうへと向かう。

With nothing else to say, the young man faced the room's exit.

その表情には嫌悪が浮かんでいて、誰も近づけない刺々しい雰囲気が漂っていた。

A disgusted expression on his face, an aura of inapproachability surrounded the young man. (talking about his expression)

？？？「君は運が良かっただけかもしれんぞ」

Old man: It could be you were just lucky.

青年がドアノブに手をかけようとしたとき、男がそんなことを言った。

As the young man reached for the door knob, the man said this.

？？？「人生など、何がどう転ぶかわからんものだ」

Old man: In our lives, there's no telling when or how the fall will come.

？？？「君にだって、私達と同じになる可能性はあったはずだ」

Old man: Even you--you could have ended up like us.

？？？「そのことを覚えておきたまえ」

Old man: Remember that.

そう言って、男は煙草を口に運んだ。

Saying that, the man brought a cigarette to his mouth.

だが、彼の目にはもう青年の姿は映っておらず、どこか遠くを――懐かしい過去を見つめるように双眸を細めていた……。

But in his eyes the figure of the young man was reflected no longer--the pair of eyes narrowed as they looked into the distance, as if gazing into the nostalgic past.

 

 

It seems like you place much more emphasis on literal accuracy rather than how well the text reads in English.  I feel that if someone can quickly glance at the text and tell that it was originally written in another language, the translator / editor have failed their audience.  With an excellent translation, the text flows so clearly that you would never know it was a translation in the first place.  I feel that writing quality of the English is far more important than accuracy to the original Japanese for most readers, and not just because most readers can't tell the difference.

Making something 'read' like it's originally written in English would take a degree of localization, and there is indeed such a thing as over-localization. I feel like rather than making the work 'read' the way you want (like a native English novel), you should try to convey what the original is trying to express.

 

The original Japanese version still exists.  Another fan group could come along and retranslate the game, if they wanted to.

They won't.

 

The availability of these poor translations simply gives readers more options. 

 

You mean like the 'edited' machineTL of AstralAir? *shots fired*

[Conjueror]

At best, that proves that fan translations damage the prospects of an official release.

 

Well, since what I personally wish to see is visual novels being recognized and translated beautifully in the west, regardless if it's an official or fan translation, I don't really mind good fan translations, on personal level. I doubt my employer shares the sentiment, however, as good fan-tls probably damage the prospect of an official release even further.

 

 

 

That's... a highly romanticized metaphor that isn't really applicable at all.

 

Well, I thought western fans are starving for good visual novels. It doesn't make it "alright" to steal the eggs just because it's your basic human need, it's still against the law; it's just that I'd forgive such an action on a personal level, just like I'd forgive a good fan translation that does the work of art justice. It's extremely rare that the actual author is against his work being enjoyed by more people; it's usually the money-motivated suits in eroge companies that are against "wasting their time" on English market. I see good fan translations as a robin hood-like crime, where translators rescue visual novels that are forbidden to western market either because of stuck up companies or the lack of fame, and share them with the world. But it just doesn't feel right if this robin hood character would spoil the goods (bad translation) before sharing it, or openly disrespects them.

As long as your actions don't take the food from the author's table (translating stuff that's already being officially worked on) and don't misrepresent the work to the world (bad translation), then, on personal level, I feel that a fan-translation would be a right thing to do. Otherwise I can only see it as a crime both against the law and human morals.

 

Ideally, any fan translation project should contact the author or a VN localization company before releasing their translation to confirm that there is no possibility to make it into an official release. And if the author is up for it, but it turns out your translation is not "up to snuff" then you basically just wasted your time and releasing it to the public would only be an insult to the work, as well as to the author (and should be punishable by law). If the author doesn't care about the official release, then there is no harm in releasing your fan translation, I guess, but it still lowers the chances of someone talented picking it up if it's bad. I'd still find releasing something that misrepresents the work wrong on moral level, but I wouldn't go as far as to say it should be punishable by law. But I doubt any author or fan or localization company would be offended by a beautiful translation of the game that would never have otherwise been released in English.

 

 

 

Any idiot will know that my sketch isn't the original.

 

I think you're overestimating the human race.

I doubt even a fraction of people who have bought KonoSora on steam suspect that it was actually quite well written, and it pains my heart to think how the author of that work must feel.

 

 

？？？「人生など、何がどう転ぶかわからんものだ」

Old man: In our lives, there's no telling when or how the fall will come.

 

Ah, yeah. This means that there's no telling where your life might lead; but I assumed he was hinting at some hypothetical fall that sanahtlig would have known having read the VN, I don't think the lines are mutually exclusive per se. His phrasing feels stronger that way to me, too. I don't think it's that important to preserve minor mannerisms inherent to Japanese writing that would only make the English lines feel clunky like あらゆる or なり in this case though, or preoccupy yourself with details like that the "aura of inapproachability" came only from his face; I'm sure it surrounded his whole body anyway. xD

Though I suppose it makes sense to point those out if he's not confident in his Japanese skills and is actually missing them instead of deliberately glossing them over.

[sanahtlig]

Leaving stuff out doesn't make a translation any less wrong. It feels like you left the stuff you had trouble translating out, and that's just as bad as a misTL. These are bolded.

 

There are also some word choice errors and blatant misTLs. These are underlined.

 

Don't worry though, you've only posted less than 1 minute of gameplay. As such, the points below might not be a clear indication of your overall translation quality.

That's all I've ever translated, so it's not like there's anything else to misrepresent.  I lack basic understanding of grammar and nuance, and the ability to interpret the inherent vagueness of colloquial language.  I'm faced with that even reading something simple like the introduction to Monobeno.  I understand that I'm not at the level to deliver a good translation of, well, anything.  The point of this exercise was actually to demonstrate that even with an extremely elementary level of Japanese understanding one can output a translation that is serviceable (for many but not all VNs).  It's highly unlikely I'll ever actually translate something people would want to read.  Doing so simply doesn't seem... useful.

 

But thanks for the extra TLC pass.

 

Though I suppose it makes sense to point those out if he's not confident in his Japanese skills and is actually missing them instead of deliberately glossing them over.

Guilty as charged.  To be honest, I still can't read this scene unaided, even after having read it several times with assistance.

 

My reading method necessarily misses stylistic details.  I view my translation as I might reconstituted fruit juice.  I distill a sentence to its bare essentials and then reconstitute it in my own writing style.  The end result hopefully resembles the original, but it may not match up exactly.  I'm essentially replicating the process of comprehension that goes on in my mind as I read Japanese.

 

As long as your actions don't take the food from the author's table (translating stuff that's already being officially worked on)

Pabloc, you villain.

 

Otherwise I can only see it as a crime both against the law and human morals.

I really don't see how a bad translation is morally reprehensible.  Promotion of VNs in English isn't exactly on the level of issues such as human rights, freedom of expression, public health, or even fostering innovation (through protection of intellectual property).  There's simply no support for a moral claim here, and in fact I argued earlier that the value of freedom of information as a principle tends to override the transitory benefits of censorship.

 

I doubt even a fraction of people who have bought KonoSora on steam suspect that it was actually quite well written, and it pains my heart to think how the author of that work must feel.

I doubt he (they) cares as much as you think, being that he probably doesn't speak English and has little to no contact with English fans.

[Conjueror]

Pabloc, you villain.

 

KonoSora doesn't count, it needs to be rescued from those insane people at MoeNovel. xD

 

And, as far as I know, don't you still need to buy the English version to run the patch?

 

 

I really don't see how a bad translation is morally reprehensible.

 

I find misrepresenting someone else's work to be very morally reprehensible. But, I suppose, that's just me. I don't think "freedom of speech" applies to stealing and rewriting someone else's work. I mean, you're putting your own words in the author's mouth, not even speaking yourself.

And lessening the chances of someone actually doing a good translation of the work is reprehensible both toward the work and its fans. I've never even heard of a fan re-tl except for Cross†Channel that was done by some crazy dude, and KonoSora which is a special case because of its popularity that was brought upon by its "official" status.

 

 

 

I doubt he (they) cares as much as you think, being that he probably doesn't speak English and has little to no contact with English fans.

 

If my work ever got translated to another language I sure would care about its quality, and how people are taking it over there. And would surely sue whoever fucked it up.

 

 

 

My reading method necessarily misses stylistic details.  I view my translation as I might reconstituted fruit juice.  I distill a sentence to its bare essentials and then reconstitute it in my own writing style.  The end result hopefully resembles the original, but it may not match up exactly.  I'm essentially replicating the process of comprehension that goes on in my mind as I read Japanese.

 

I find this method to produce best translations of things, as long your reading comprehension is alright (which, according to you, is not in this case). Translating things on syntax level only nets you with clunky prose.

[Kirashi]

What do you mean by "hard"?

 

I tried to play this game, but the sentence where hard for me to understand (I am learning japanese since 3 years), so I gave it a try with agth. I could read the sentence but I understood half of the common route.

 

Also, some Cg were kinf od hard too, like the one

 

with the half cut girl

 

But yeah, if you find the time to explain the whole game and the route for those wo want to know, I whould be happy you do so

[Pabloc]

It seems like you place much more emphasis on literal accuracy rather than how well the text reads in English.  I feel that if someone can quickly glance at the text and tell that it was originally written in another language, the translator / editor have failed their audience.  With an excellent translation, the text flows so clearly that you would never know it was a translation in the first place.  I feel that writing quality of the English is far more important than accuracy to the original Japanese for most readers, and not just because most readers can't tell the difference.

I wouldn't call that "literal accuracy", because overly literal translations often actually twist the tone or even meaning of sentences. But yeah, I'm not a native English speaker and I know JP, so I can overlook some sacrifices made in the writing field in favor of faithfulness to the original. That's why I'm quite forgiving when it comes to Taka-jun's translations for example. But you're right, for a TL to be considered excellent, it has to be written very well in English AND convey the same thing as the original text (not literally, obviously).

 

All of the above applies to the translations that I read, though. When I'm actually translating KonoSora myself, I put quite a bit more weight on the writing (though I still value accuracy more, so I leave honorifics as-is for example, even though it's a crime against English ).

 

The games you listed in the Unacceptable category--based on your statements, I take this as a declaration that these translations should not exist.  But why?  What harm are they doing?  The original Japanese version still exists.  Another fan group could come along and retranslate the game, if they wanted to.  The availability of these poor translations simply gives readers more options.  Who are you or anyone else to limit the choices of others based on your own preconceptions of what constitutes a "good enough" translation, no matter how objective your criteria might be?  VNDB catalogues all VNs (as far as I know), regardless of their quality.  It doesn't exclude titles no matter how bad they are, and the vast majority are actually being sold to unsuspecting buyers.  Why should translations be any different?

1) You will never get any fan-re-translaitons. Period. KonoSora is the only exception, and that's just because the main translator is stubborn like a mule.

There were some fan-efforts to fix Divi-Dead, but they were rather cosmetic. I don't see Flyable Heart & Kiminago re-TL anywhere, even though the troll-patches are a pure MT (again - there was an attempt, but I think it's dead). Nobody even tried touching Gin'iro. And so on.

 

2) Official publishers can pick up a fan-translation and use it for a commercial release, but only when such TL is good and doesn't require too much editing (while it can lower the potential sales to some extent, it also reduces the costs). Bad fan-TLs can only cause harm here - people will already know the story (more or less), but it's quite possible that due to flawed TL, they won't enjoy it enough to support the official release. And the publisher would have to re-translate it from scratch anyway (so, they lower the potential sales, but don't reduce costs). That's why they are infinitely more likely to pick up something new.

Sekai Project did pick up Clannad for re-translation, but that's a Steam-friendly VN with extremely popular anime adaptation. It can be sold to the anime fanbase alone, so even if VN-readers will ignore it, it's still a potential gold mine.

 

In short, once something is butchered, it will stay butchered. Almost no exceptions.

 

Now, it's true that a lot of people won't mind it. A lot of people enjoyed the butchered version of KonoSora, just like they liked that Sakura Spirit & co., or 50 Shades of Gray, etc.. Basically, a lot of people are pretty much illiterate. They don't care that some stuff makes no sense, is poorly written or whatever. Or just have extremely high tolerance for BS. So yeah, they will be happy with getting crappy translations.

 

The problem is, they are the exclusive audience for crappy translations. People who actually care about what they are reading, won't enjoy something like KonoSora. It'll give them cancer. And since it's safe to assume you only get one translation, poorly translated titles are effectively unavailable for them forever. While lack of translation always leaves a chance that somebody (fan or a company) will pick it up. So in the end, poor TLs do harm this group.

Good translations however, are universal. Both groups can enjoy them just fine. Nobody is harmed by a solid TL.

 

So, one group effectively denies the other a chance to read some VNs in English, just because they have very low standards themselves. For me, that's a pretty good reason why exceptionally incompetent translations shouldn't exist.

 

Plus, there's also an issue with butchering works of art, which is simply barbaric. But, that was already addressed here.

 

Also, there's one more thing that people who blindly encourage incompetent fan-translations like to overlook. But, I already addressed it in the Eustia thread, and since it's very relevant to the recent Monobeno case, I'll just copypaste it here:

You guys are conveniently ignoring an important issue. The vast majority of projects started by people with inadequate abilities never gets finished, and those people end up discouraged for good and don't return to the VNTL scene ever again.

(I'm assuming a good will here, and I'm only talking about people who are actually trying. Copypasting machine translations and other blatant trolling doesn't count.)

 

People who stupidly encourage inexperienced translators to pick up stuff that might be far too hard for them, not only are showing their disrespect towards original work (by letting someone butcher it), entire English-speaking community (by practically preventing them from fully enjoying said work in English, ever), but most importantly - towards said translators themselves. And they don't even realize the harm such blind acceptance can cause. With your nice, encouraging words, you are telling them to struggle with something that is simply beyond their abilities. To spend a lot of their time and their energy on a project that will only quickly burn them out without producing any decent results. When your skills are insufficient, not only your TL quality suffers. It also takes much more effort to produce said TL, even if it's bad.

A person new to the TL scene is almost guaranteed to misjudge the amount of time and skill that such project will require. He has a lot of enthusiasm, but it won't keep him going for too long if the script is simply too advanced for his shaky Japanese. Most of the time this results in projects left dead in the water and burned out translators. And on the off chance such project actually gets finished, the team will end up rightfully bashed by every sensible person. That's where such "beggars", who swallow everything indiscriminately, are leading aspiring translators - quick burnout and wasted effort. Sure, occasionally you will get a finished translation, but it will be crappy and won't represent the original work too well anyway. And for that one bad TL, you are willing to sacrifice the time and effort of ~10 or more aspiring translators who will drop their projects and disappear from the scene forever. How nice.

 

You know what? That's even worse than 4chan trolls. They tell inexperienced translators that they should just kill themselves, while Fuwa-style blind supporters basically tell them to bleed themselves to death while struggling with an overly ambitious project.

 

Too bad that usually nobody tries to push aspiring translators in the right direction, give them some hints and point out their mistakes in a civilized manner. And if somebody does, his/her voice is drowned by the constant "woow, you iz awesome, good luck lol!" and "kill yourself faget, lol!" exchange.

 

Try encouraging people to tackle projects they actually can finish. Just that. Blind support causes people to waste their enthusiasm and produce nothing of value. Directing that enthusiasm in the right direction can help someone become a decent translator. If you don't respect the original work or the community, at the very least show some respect to the aspiring translators. Respect = constructive criticism and guidance (if you have some experience). Pushing someone forward for your own amusement, when you know he is heading towards a dead end is just cruel.

 

Oh, and don't take this post as complaining about this particular project. It's a general comment. Personally, I'm not that concerned about this TL. If I find it inadequate, I will just read AnE in Japanese. Because I can. ┐（￣－￣）┌

However, since I like VNs, and I kinda care about this medium, I enjoy talking about them with friends and obviously I'd like to see them getting more popular on the West. Pile of dead projects or mistranslated BS doesn't exactly help here.

 

[Mephisto]

This thread died so I felt like reviving it for lulz. 

 

It isn't a secret that translating is a pretty unrewarding task that takes a lot of time and effort. 

 

I fee like what Sanah was referring to with all the "professional quality" stuff is less the expectation of random people who download VNs, but more the crowd that download the english patch of a game, put a stick up their ass, and point out all the mistakes that were made/portions of the translation that were not perfect. 

[sanahtlig]

Being that the silent majority leave no feedback at all, that is how it usually ends up.  With the apathy of the masses, and the criticism of the community, it's not a very motivating environment to "work" in. 

[dowolf]

Yeah. When you're translating tens of thousands of lines in your free time, and you're the only person on the project with any knowledge of Japanese (something that happens far more often than it should, but I digress), there will be lines, here and there, where your brain does something dumb and you mess up. Fuck people who dig through your work looking for a reason to call it crap, then do so because you messed up one line at the very end of the final route. Be happy that you somehow got through the first 30k lines without there being anything you saw fit to complain about!

(...Ahem.)

But on the other hand, you have works like (going outside of the VN sphere, since I've played more games in multiple languages than I have read VNs) Treasure of the Rudras, where the "translation" is very well-edited and very professionally done and has almost no basis in the original Japanese text. And the odds of it ever getting a proper translation are, quite frankly, zero, because (as others have said) multiple fan translations almost never happen. You also have the scanlation sphere, where the first translation done is the one that gets put up on all the aggregate sites, regardless of quality, strongly discouraging anyone from redoing such work.

That, I think, is why people are so vehement about the truly bad translations--because it discourages and even interferes with genuine efforts.

[sanahtlig]

But on the other hand, you have works like (going outside of the VN sphere, since I've played more games in multiple languages than I have read VNs) Treasure of the Rudras, where the "translation" is very well-edited and very professionally done and has almost no basis in the original Japanese text. And the odds of it ever getting a proper translation are, quite frankly, zero, because (as others have said) multiple fan translations almost never happen. You also have the scanlation sphere, where the first translation done is the one that gets put up on all the aggregate sites, regardless of quality, strongly discouraging anyone from redoing such work.

That, I think, is why people are so vehement about the truly bad translations--because it discourages and even interferes with genuine efforts.

That's an argument for effective and widely-used rating schemes, not an argument against the translations existing.  For any given type of content, there's going to be a spectrum from good to bad.  Yet we don't say bad content shouldn't exist or should never have been produced.  We don't harass the the creators of such content.  We deal with the spectrum of content quality using objective and subjective ratings which allows us to highlight the most deserving content.

 

I can look up anime fansubbing groups and see aggregated opinions of their translations.  Why can't I do the same for VNs?

[dowolf]

That's an argument for effective and widely-used rating schemes, not an argument against the translations existing.  For any given type of content, there's going to be a spectrum from good to bad.  Yet we don't say bad content shouldn't exist or should never have been produced.  We don't harass the the creators of such content.  We deal with the spectrum of content quality using objective and subjective ratings which allows us to highlight the most deserving content.

 

I can look up anime fansubbing groups and see aggregated opinions of their translations.  Why can't I do the same for VNs?

There are two problems with that method. The first is that the majority of people giving their opinions on those sites are people who don't know Japanese, who are judging the episodes solely based on how well-edited the English is. The second is that, with manga (less so with anime, though this isn't really an issue anymore now that almost all anime is being simulcast), most people don't shop around for the best translation--they'll just read whatever one is posted on their favorite aggregate site. Admittedly, this second complaint wouldn't be as much of an issue with regards to VNs, for obvious reasons.

But regardless, I would argue that this is a false comparison because of the difference in commitment a translator must make to a VN as opposed to short-form works (i.e. manga/anime). The average manga chapter takes me an hour or two to translate, which is a very easy investment to make, even if there are low odds your work is widely seen. But when we switch over to VNs--where that commitment becomes hundreds of hours, if not over a thousand--any desire to retranslate something because you found the original effort unsatisfactory suddenly enters the realm of lunacy.

Spending all your free time for months and months to do something that very few people will bother to read (since most of the potential audience probably already read the original translation)? No. Even if the original work was bastardized, there's no point.

[astro]

The biggest problem I have with bad translations (this is an actual conversation I had with a friend, though I paraphrased it and subbed some parts out as to not target a specific TL):

 

Weeb Friend A: Hey man, have you played [insert game name] before?

Me: Yeah, I played it in Japanese a while after it was released. It's one of my favourite games.

WeebFriend A: Oh. Cool, cool. Yeah I really liked it too.

Me: Sweet, I'm glad you enjoyed it. What're your thoughts about the game specifically?

Weeb Friend A: It was great, but dude, I can't believe the heroine killed her own mom. I used to like her, but that just ruined it for me.

Me: Wtf? That NEVER happened...

Weeb Friend A: Um, hello?? Yes it did.

Me: Are you sure we're talking about the same game...?

Weeb Friend A: Yes, I'm sure. Here, I'll send you a screenshot of the part I'm talking about.

 

[File transfer complete: 572kb/572kb]

 

Weeb Friend A: See??

Me: Dude, this translation is wrong...

Weeb Friend A: Oh... Well dang. Me and a bunch of other friends were raging about it, and I imagine we're not the only ones. Maybe you could point out all the mistakes on reddit or something.

Me: How the hell do you expect me to do that? I'd have to start another TL project to fix all these mistakes, which I don't have the time for. And even then, people probably wouldn't want to play through the exact same game twice if the TL ruined it for them the first time...

Weeb Friend A: Oh. Well was this part translated right at least?

 

[File transfer complete: 685kb/685kb]

 

Me: ...It's like we're not even reading the same game anymore...

Weeb Friend A: Well it can't be THAT bad... It looks like they put a lot of work into it.

Me: I won't deny that this person spent a degree of time working on this, but the translator clearly took shortcuts and didn't bother to learn Japanese properly first. I wouldn't really consider that to be 'hard work'. The result is this butchered version of the game, that I can't even tell is the same game anymore.

Weeb Friend A: Come on, no one's great when they're first starting out. Practice makes perfect, right?

Me: If they're making these kinds of mistakes without being aware of it themselves, then I'd hardly call it practice. If anything, this is only detrimental to their learning. A translation project is a huge commitment; jumping into a project without even knowing the language tells me they're not even willing to learn - they're simply just rushing things.

Weeb Friend A: Well, yeah... I guess you have a point.

[Mephisto]

 

The biggest problem I have with bad translations (this is an actual conversation I had with a friend, though I paraphrased it and subbed some parts out as to not target a specific TL):

 

Weeb Friend A: Hey man, have you played [insert game name] before?

Me: Yeah, I played it in Japanese a while after it was released. It's one of my favourite games.

WeebFriend A: Oh. Cool, cool. Yeah I really liked it too.

Me: Sweet, I'm glad you enjoyed it. What're your thoughts about the game specifically?

Weeb Friend A: It was great, but dude, I can't believe the heroine killed her own mom. I used to like her, but that just ruined it for me.

Me: Wtf? That NEVER happened...

Weeb Friend A: Um, hello?? Yes it did.

Me: Are you sure we're talking about the same game...?

Weeb Friend A: Yes, I'm sure. Here, I'll send you a screenshot of the part I'm talking about.

 

[File transfer complete: 572kb/572kb]

 

Weeb Friend A: See??

Me: Dude, this translation is wrong...

Weeb Friend A: Oh... Well dang. Me and a bunch of other friends were raging about it, and I imagine we're not the only ones. Maybe you could point out all the mistakes on reddit or something.

Me: How the hell do you expect me to do that? I'd have to start another TL project to fix all these mistakes, which I don't have the time for. And even then, people probably wouldn't want to play through the exact same game twice if the TL ruined it for them the first time...

Weeb Friend A: Oh. Well was this part translated right at least?

 

[File transfer complete: 685kb/685kb]

 

Me: ...It's like we're not even reading the same game anymore...

Weeb Friend A: Well it can't be THAT bad... It looks like they put a lot of work into it.

Me: I won't deny that this person spent a degree of time working on this, but the translator clearly took shortcuts and didn't bother to learn Japanese properly first. I wouldn't really consider that to be 'hard work'. The result is this butchered version of the game, that I can't even tell is the same game anymore.

Weeb Friend A: Come on, no one's great when they're first starting out. Practice makes perfect, right?

Me: If they're making these kinds of mistakes without being aware of it themselves, then I'd hardly call it practice. If anything, this is only detrimental to their learning. A translation project is a huge commitment; jumping into a project without even knowing the language tells me they're not even willing to learn - they're simply just rushing things.

Weeb Friend A: Well, yeah... I guess you have a point.

 

rip