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Monobeno -Happy End- Translation Project

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But everyone who watched the video will know that it is playable and the translation is better than in any IdeaFactory game ^^

Shots fired.

Anyway, good luck with the project, as was stated before, the translation definetly needs some polishing, but hey, you've got time. Though it's pretty huge so see you in 7 years.

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Alright i'm going to put a brake here.

I don't care if you think this person's translation is bad, they have the right to host their project here and post updates without being constantly harassed.

You've already stated you don't like this translation multiple times, that's fine, but no need to keep repeating yourself and bashing down the people who are trying to put effort into this, you're doing nobody here a favor by completely diminishing this person's efforts and i won't allow that on Fuwanovel.

Any posts that keep bashing the translation with no other merit to them will be immediately hidden. I understand some people in this niche expect some sort of prestige quality translation for everything, but i'll break it to you and explain you are not entitled to anything, so if this doesn't meet your standards, please look elsewhere, Fuwanovel welcomes people looking to host their projects as well as constructive criticism on them, we don't however allow such "criticism" to be based on users looking down on project leaders and staff as well as their projects, this creates an unpleasant environment for everybody and hinders projects for no good reason.

If anybody has anything to say about this project in the future, please make sure it's not just a post out of pure hatred, give everybody a fair chance to try to work on things instead of bashing them down.

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Alright i'm going to put a brake here.

I don't care if you think this person's translation is bad, they have the right to host their project here and post updates without being constantly harassed.

You've already stated you don't like this translation multiple times, that's fine, but no need to keep repeating yourself and bashing down the people who are trying to put effort into this, you're doing nobody here a favor by completely diminishing this person's efforts and i won't allow that on Fuwanovel.

Any posts that keep bashing the translation with no other merit to them will be immediately hidden. I understand some people in this niche expect some sort of prestige quality translation for everything, but i'll break it to you and explain you are not entitled to anything, so if this doesn't meet your standards, please look elsewhere, Fuwanovel welcomes people looking to host their projects as well as constructive criticism on them, we don't however allow such "criticism" to be based on users looking down on project leaders and staff as well as their projects, this creates an unpleasant environment for everybody and hinders projects for no good reason.

If anybody has anything to say about this project in the future, please make sure it's not just a post out of pure hatred, give everybody a fair chance to try to work on things instead of bashing them down.

 

The only sort of criticism you're interested in is one completely devoid of content. I don't need or expect anything from this project, but you seem to have confused standards for a sense of entitlement. Translations that wouldn't get a passing grade in middle school English class get pats on the back because the truth would hurt someone's feelings.

 

I'm sure you'll delete this post. It is, after all, very critical.

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I'm saying at this point all your posts are devoid of anything meaningful as they're just repeating the fact you don't agree with the translation and think it's bad, as if repeating it enough times will somehow make it more right or something. So really it's more like spam, and i don't like spam.

This is about creating a decent environment where people can work in. You've already expressed your concerns, the translation team is free to address them however they want, but repeating the same stuff is pointless, so what i'm asking is to stop that part, they've already heard several people say it, so keeping this pointless bickering makes no sense and won't magically fix everything, it just makes it worse as it discourages the people working on it. You can be critical without completely bashing down a team of people working on something for free, seriously, it's not that hard.

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Decent translations don't come out of trashy and negative environments, that's all i'm saying.

I think you and everyone got the point already though so let's not continue this. This was more of a preemptive thing so we don't get ourselves another Eustia thread.

(Read: Don't reply to this post).

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Alright i'm going to put a brake here.

I don't care if you think this person's translation is bad, they have the right to host their project here and post updates without being constantly harassed.

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He might have sounded harsh but he's definitely right. Monobeno's tougher than it looks and the translator has already shown problems this early.

People don't care how much effort went into it or how much the team likes the work in question, all people care about is whether the translation is good or not.

He is also angry, there is certainly merit to what he is saying..... but, the way he is saying it will undoubtedly agitate others and hamper any good he is trying to accomplish.

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He might have sounded harsh but he's definitely right. Monobeno's tougher than it looks and the translator has already shown problems this early.

People don't care how much effort went into it or how much the team likes the work in question, all people care about is whether the translation is good or not.

It would be pretty terrible to find out a game you were looking forward to playing got say, machine translated, especially since most VNs don't get second translations, so that one project was maybe your one shot at reading it, but nope, you got a machine translation. And this might just be where this project is headed. (Not the machine TL part, but, yeah)

I can see where you're coming from, and Candycorm too, but you can't just sit there attacking the project and expect it to get better. You're right that this game may only have one shot to get translated, so which would you rather:

1. Due to criticism the project shuts down and, due to its loli/fetish nature, no one looks at Monobeno for translation again

or

2. Guided by feedback and with the help of the community the Monobeno translation, which had a rocky start, is able to improve and provide a better outcome than folks originally might have expected.

 

It's easy to say 'hey the translation is bad', but when we say it what are we expecting to happen? The translator to get better? Well that takes a lot of time and study so expect it to take even more years for a good translation to come out. The project to get another translator? That would be magical but hoping for that is frankly silly when they're obviously already trying to get more translators onto the team. What else can they do? Quit?

 

Instead of doing that, how about saying 'Hey you should use a translation checker' (if you were super magically nice you might even try to help them find one). Or 'if one translator is better and slower, and the other is sloppy but fast, maybe have the slower translator switch over to just TLCing so together they could have a fast, accurate translation'.

 

Dumping it all in their lap and somehow expecting the project to just get better somehow isn't going to help anything. Constructive criticism is when the community tries to help the project by giving advice and pointing out places for improvement. It's not just about saying something is wrong and then sitting on your hands.

 

All that said, it's still their project that they're doing in their free time because they want to. Translating, no matter how good or bad you are at it, is a long, frustrating, stressful, tiring, and often thankless experience. At the very least we should try and treat translation teams civilly, even when we have a problem with their work. A poor translator can eventually become a good translator, but not if their path is paved with snark and condescension.

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True, and the OPs response was very much fuel to the fire so like I said I can see where people are coming from, but I think it's super early for us to get all doom and gloom about it. The project isn't even a month old, and we've only seen a single sample at this point. There's plenty of time for improvement.

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There's already been one attempt at starting a translation for this by someone who only knew 250 kanji. So I'm sure someone else will try their hand at it even if this project dies. People don't refuse to pick up projects because someone else abandoned them. They do usually refuse to re-translate something that has already had a bad translation though, no matter how bad it is. I think it's noteworthy that the only people thinking they can translate this are people who can't even make it through the first few chapters without running into significant errors.

 

I see no positive outcome from encouraging people to tackle something they're clearly incapable of. It will only lead to disappointment for everyone. If anything is better than nothing, due solely to its availability, then they should just throw it through a machine translator already and get it over with. It would certainly save everyone some time.

Yo, machine TL's bad rep. At least let them put some effort into it. 

 

Well, I've said this before and I'll say it again, I, person who doesn't know Japanese can't play this VN.

This will never change unless someone translates it. If they translate it badly then it's the same as me never being able to read it. Which leaves me in the same position I had initially: I can't and never will be able to read Monobeno unless someone TL's it. If it's a bad TL then it removes the possibility someone else might come and TL it well. 

But you know? If other teams don't choose this VN because it already had a TL, then that just means we'll get another one instead. There's no reason it has to be this VN.

I may never be able to read Monobeno because TL team 'X' TL'ed it badly and scared off TL team 'Y'. However, TL team Y TL'ed another VN instead. In the end, I still get a VN, be it this one I've never read before and don't know if I would've liked it anyways, or another VN I don't know but I could enjoy (or not).

 

In the end, instead of trying to instakill this team, how about you try to reluctantly support them? There's no reason nor is there anything that guarantees this will end up as a bad TL, even if it started as one, unless it is immediately killed. Effort attracts more effort. More people could totally join this and this could totally turn out of the better. Or not.

 

Monobeno team, you're probably not enjoying having this kind of argument go on in your thread, but please remember, it's everyone's mutual goal that Monobeno gets a good TL, even if people have different ways of going about it. 

Once again, best of luck, don't be discouraged by different perspectives and continue trying no matter what happens. I can tell you I certainly wouldn't have the courage to try on a project like this, and so I applaud you.

*clap clap* <-- High budget sound effects

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wont judge the other translators ability (as we havent seen anything so far) & regarding zakudonos former tled short teaser of this game, its around ~1year old & perhaps he somehow improved his skills since then (NOT implying he´s mr. supertler now)
because noone starts out perfect, it would be great when other capable translators etc. could join them, so that their "weakest" one could focus entirely on the easier parts, steadily upgrading his own skills with time. would be a real shame seeing this project go down the stream, simply because of ones false pride.
nevertheless best of luck, you´ll truly need it

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As far as the criticisms regarding translation are concerned. Pointing out mistakes is one thing, it is helpful in creating a better project and useful to the translator in refining their skills. But calling a project hopeless and criticising the translation team saying they shouldn’t bother because they are not up to a certain standard is counterproductive and offensive. It’s all about intent and I feel not one iota of positive intent in such statements.

 

Some people learning Japanese like to practice their skills by translating their favorite media whether this be manga, visual novels, games, anime, whatever. They kindly share these with others who may not have the time or inclination to learn another language. Nobody is forced to read these translations. Maybe they’re not perfect, maybe they contain more than a few translation errors. Regardless this is someone’s hard work at attempting to do something constructive, I think people should be respectful of this fact when posting.

 

Good luck to the Monobeno translation team. Hope you guys are successful with your ambitious project!

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But you know? If other teams don't choose this VN because it already had a TL, then that just means we'll get another one instead. There's no reason it has to be this VN.

I may never be able to read Monobeno because TL team 'X' TL'ed it badly and scared off TL team 'Y'. However, TL team Y TL'ed another VN instead. In the end, I still get a VN, be it this one I've never read before and don't know if I would've liked it anyways, or another VN I don't know but I could enjoy (or not).

 

And what if TL team Y decides there's no point in wasting their efforts on this whole Fan-TL business, when apparently this community will appreciate anything, no matter how crappy it is? Because, you know, seeing people blindly praise and encourage even the poorest attempts at translating something can be a bit demotivating sometimes.

 

@Nosebleed

Are you sure you are reprimanding the right guy? Candycorm posted a perfect example of constructive criticism (#70). Then, the project coordinator completely disregarded it, and posted some utterly ridiculous stuff instead of addressing any of the mentioned issues. Is it okay to demand respect only from one side of the discussion?

Maybe you should suggest them, that taking their own project at least a little bit seriously would be a good idea? Because joking that they probably won't finish it this year, that it won't be perfect, or about being better than IF pretty much begs for some bashing. :P

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Western fans and people who are learning or have currently learned Japanese as a 2nd language get very critical when it comes to perfect translations and make sure the Japanese is as original as possible. It's so important, that they will criticize people to the point of ripping them apart because their TL was shit. This is true for anime and manga as well.

 

Japanese people give 0 fucks and post whatever they want to in English (and French; ask Down, he knows). They plaster it on clothing items, accessories, in anime, and all over the country. The cultural difference between western fans and actual Japanese friends I have spoken to amazes me. I wonder what would happen if the role was reversed and visual novels were originally an English medium. I bet the amount of visual novels that were translated into Japanese would be nearly 10 times the amount there is now, and they probably wouldn't give a rat's ass about the originality, rather if they can understand it or not.

 

Good luck in your project!

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@Nosebleed

Are you sure you are reprimanding the right guy? Candycorm posted a perfect example of constructive criticism (#70). Then, the project coordinator completely disregarded it, and posted some utterly ridiculous stuff instead of addressing any of the mentioned issues. Is it okay to demand respect only from one side of the discussion?

Maybe you should suggest them, that taking their own project at least a little bit seriously would be a good idea? Because joking that they probably won't finish it this year, that it won't be perfect, or about being better than IF pretty much begs for some bashing. :P

I'm reprimending the tone rather than the content. Because I've seen this kind of stuff happen in the past and it's not fun for anybody, also I'm not reprimanding Candycorn in particular, just giving a general warning for everybody that it's not okay to be so ridiculously condescending when the people involved in this project aren't doing anything that is directly impacting your life where you need to instantly diminish them, Candycorn just so happened to be the most vocal about it but I wasn't targeting him in specific. There's nothing wrong with discussing what's bad about a project if you're going to provide some sort of constructive criticism, just don't be douchebags about it, that's all. It amazes me that people manage to be so elitist about this kind of stuff, just let these people try to work a bit and improve themselves.

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^ This.

I won't argue with people who call a project "hopeless" without even waiting for the first partial patch (that will be edited and QC'd). I already have to deal with enough disrespectful people at work (I work in IT so you can imagine...).

 

There is one thing he is right about though. With the current translation speed it would take about 5 years to complete the project, but even that you can't say for sure yet. We will definitely find more translators and also a one week average is not a representative value.

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Japanese people give 0 fucks and post whatever they want to in English (and French; ask Down, he knows). They plaster it on clothing items, accessories, in anime, and all over the country. The cultural difference between western fans and actual Japanese friends I have spoken to amazes me. I wonder what would happen if the role was reversed and visual novels were originally an English medium. I bet the amount of visual novels that were translated into Japanese would be nearly 10 times the amount there is now, and they probably wouldn't give a rat's ass about the originality, rather if they can understand it or not.

 

I don't care what the Japanese do. In the first place, this isn't an instance of someone misusing Japanese to sound "cool" or whatever, but directly altering already existing Japanese in a way that diminishes the original. If the Japanese want to butcher written works so that they just pass the "readable" level then that's up to them. Saying that something is okay because other people do it is never a good argument.

 

 

^ This.

I won't argue with people who call a project "hopeless" without even waiting for the first partial patch (that will be edited and QC'd). I already have to deal with enough disrespectful people at work (I work in IT so you can imagine...).

 

There is one thing he is right about though. With the current translation speed it would take about 5 years to complete the project, but even that you can't say for sure yet. We will definitely find more translators and also a one week average is not a representative value.

 

If you post the video as a representation of the translation you've given no one any reason to expect anything different from any future work. The video was edited as well, but that obviously didn't matter much. Where are your translators anyway? It seems strange that they wouldn't want to respond to any of this criticism directly, especially since you clearly can't. Since my previous response to you got deleted, I'll ask again. Are you really just striving for "playable"? To be marginally better than Idea Factory, of all things?

 

 

As far as the criticisms regarding translation are concerned. Pointing out mistakes is one thing, it is helpful in creating a better project and useful to the translator in refining their skills. But calling a project hopeless and criticising the translation team saying they shouldn’t bother because they are not up to a certain standard is counterproductive and offensive. It’s all about intent and I feel not one iota of positive intent in such statements.

 

Some people learning Japanese like to practice their skills by translating their favorite media whether this be manga, visual novels, games, anime, whatever. They kindly share these with others who may not have the time or inclination to learn another language. Nobody is forced to read these translations. Maybe they’re not perfect, maybe they contain more than a few translation errors. Regardless this is someone’s hard work at attempting to do something constructive, I think people should be respectful of this fact when posting.

 

Good luck to the Monobeno translation team. Hope you guys are successful with your ambitious project!

 

It's not counterproductive. A mindset that thinks people should be encouraged to continue things that are far beyond their means is counterproductive. For the translators, who will only flounder and eventually be ridiculed and insulted for their poor work, for the fans who don't simply see this as "another visual novel" but as something they want to enjoy with a good translation, and for the quality of fan translations in general.

 

If you want to practice (reading) Japanese you should be reading. Translating as practice is not a good way to learn Japanese, only how to translate it into another language. If they want to practice translating they should take on something easier, do it on their own and never release the project. After doing this a few times maybe then they can start doing public translation on something significantly easier than Monobeno. Ixrec's Cross Channel translation (which he has himself admitted is bad) is the perfect example of an amateur ruining something because they were not capable of the work required. Of course, all this only matters if you actually know Japanese well enough to even begin translating.

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I've been meditating on this issue for the past couple days, each side has risen decent points. After engaging the emotional background noise filter and translating all the sarcastic questions into the posters "points". I swang from side to side on nearly an hourly basis, than after reading this bit I finally decided to stay on one side.

 

 Ixrec's Cross Channel translation (which he has himself admitted is bad) is the perfect example of an amateur ruining something because they were not capable of the work required. Of course, all this only matters if you actually know Japanese well enough to even begin translating.

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This is horrible... I want to vote for 158, 148, 143, and 130 but you can only vote for 3. :vinty:

Anyone who doesn't vote for 124 has shit taste

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Might as well cast my opinion...

 

Fan translation is as much about the journey as the destination.  While the audience may only care about the final product, for the translator the journey may be even more important.  This is an opportunity for the translator to improve both his Japanese skills and his English skills.  As much as he's doing it for you, he's doing it for himself.  I don't understand why anyone would think that fan translators have an obligation to provide a quality product, and that the audience should have an expectation of a quality product.  All fan translations should be treated as being of suspect quality until proven otherwise.  That's really all there is to it.  If you're unhappy with the final product, don't play it.  This game will never ever get licensed in English, so it's not like this project is ruining our chance at a professional translation (as might be the case with other titles).

 

So before you complain, remember that no one deserves a quality product for free, and that fan translators have just as much of a right to benefit from a project as their audience.  Maybe if there were a better resource for tracking translation quality across different releases we wouldn't even be having these arguments.  And maybe if the more skilled fan translators simply took pride in the quality of their own work, and weren't so preoccupied with the attention other groups were getting, there wouldn't be so much bickering going on.

 

[An edited version of this post was /index.php?/blog/63/entry-538-regarding-demands-for-fan-translation-project-quality-standards/">reposted on my personal blog]

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