Localization of VNs

[Steve]

Because there's adults who won't play games with porn in them. And there's distributors that won't sell games without porn in them, if the company that localized them also localizes games with porn in them. Read that article I linked. It's eye-opening.

its not that easy, the distributors wouldn't sell those games just because they calculate that not that many people would buy them.

And its just because some people don't understand different sexual content other than their precious brazzers porn. And obviously what they don't like, other people must be forced to not like too because thats how the world currently works.

You can never expect sales of VNs to be in millions like call of duty (or lick 2 little girls), just like you can't expect hardcore fishing simulator to have those sales - they are both for a very specific audience and the one for VNs is niche even in japan. The thing is that you don't need millions of sales, you don't need hundreds of thousands of sales, when few thousands sales will easily pay the extra localization costs.

The approach of "we will force our way to the general public on steam or whenever just to get thousand of sales from curious people who don't really care about VNs" is really bad one.

Why not just focus on the current fans and slowly but surely expand the market.

Why focus on steam, when you can, I dunno - make crunchyroll the distribution platform. People who are interested in the anime are already there, why not to try to show it to them, there will probably be some interested.

Instead of forcing the VNs to people who play AAA games like CoD.

Its like putting advertisements on cheap taxi inside sport shop. Why not just put the advertisement on... I dunno... bus stop?

Yes, people who visit sport shops can also use taxi, but they go inside the shop for very different reason and with intention to preferably do some sport. Where as people who like using bus might find using taxi a very good alternative.

[sanahtlig]

It doesn't matter how good your game is if no one knows or cares that your game exists--or those that do care aren't willing to pay for it. Getting these games in as many outlets as possible is crucial to achieving the exposure necessary to create more paying fans. I'm beginning to realize that I want KonoSora to succeed, as a censored all-ages title if need be, even if I have no interest in playing it myself, even as I curse MoeNovel for botching a perfectly good title I would've loved to play. Because we can't have nice things unless the paying fanbase is large enough to fund these nice things, and growing that fanbase means drawing the attention of paying customers who are not currently fans. There's probably no better way to do that than selling all-ages titles. Piracy will not grow the paying fanbase because it just creates more leechers, who simply feed into a culture of leeching. They may eventually become paying customers but the process is slow and inefficient. We have enough leechers already. We don't need any more. Given a choice between cajoling an eroge leecher to pay up, and coaxing an all-ages VN customer to buy an eroge, I'd rather take my chances with the latter.

[Wahfuu]

Why not just focus on the current fans and slowly but surely expand the market.

Why focus on steam, when you can, I dunno - make crunchyroll the distribution platform. People who are interested in the anime are already there, why not to try to show it to them, there will probably be some interested.

Instead of forcing the VNs to people who play AAA games like CoD.

Mostly because the current fans are small in number, bitchy and toxic to the entire scene, to be fair.

[Steve]

Given a choice between cajoling an eroge leecher to pay up, and coaxing an all-ages VN customer to buy an eroge, I'd rather take my chances with the latter.

but who are those all-ages VN customers currently? Who are those that would definitely not buy a game just because it is labeled as mature with H scenes and they can't just ctrl skip it, but buy the same game where you date girls, only without H content.

And you say that every current non-nukige eroge fan would never pay anything?

Well they are surely more willing to pay for a good eroge with normal H content, than people on steam.

Well if MoeNovel things like that, they are basically saying "we know there is current fanbase but we don't care about them, they are sick perverts, we will rather try target new now non-existant audience and hope for the best".

They would be forcing their way into the market, instead of building trust within current fanbase, expanding to people that are closest to the fanbase and letting the fanbase grow.

If they would actually succeed like this, with use of some popular distribution or whatever, it would feel like cheating to me.

And imagine this, you say that expanding to the all-ages audience is good. Creating totally new fanbase like that. OK, lets say that happens and they have success, great sales and so many all-ages fans.

But at what cost! ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

The all-ages fans would now be the majority, they would only want the all-ages releases and every localized game would have to be all-ages, stripped from any H content, to even sell.

And who gets screwed the most? Well the fans of eroge, the original Japanese eroge - us.

So I don't want this to succeed, as it would case future projects to follow in these steps.

And let me show you an example of it succeeding and in the end hurting the original fanbase, in different scenario. Do you remember old games, anything from shooters, RPGs, strategies - they were HARD! There was no casual mode, exactly the opposide, there was NIGHTMARE mode or "Black plague possesses thee" mode. But they decided they have to cater to wider audience, to audience of non-gamers, people who watched dancing with the stars or whichever show on TV.

And how better do it than making the game IMPOSSIBLE TO FAIL, some of the games actually really have NO fail status, you get bloody screen and that's the most you get. Having a game that is actually difficult nowadays is quite hard.

And who gets screwed up the most - the original gamers who liked it Hard CORE.

... to the point where you have to PAY FOR HARDMODE DIFFICULTY!

That is the point, they try to abandon the current VN fanbase, people who read fanTL the original way as they have it in the JP version. With everything the JP version has. Just like the original HC gamers played fanmade mods, fanmade maps - the company had nothing from it, but the fans were happy and trusted in the company in the end.

If this all-ages boom would actually work, I don't want to go through all that again, would we have to in the end pay extra 10$ even for kiss scenes?

This is lot of "what if" but really this is what could easily happen if this stripping VN content continues to satisfy these almost non-existant strict absolutely no H all-ages customers.

Instead of listening to people they see voicing their opinions now here on fuwanovel, on MG forums, on vndb and I bet on any other forum dedicated to this, begging them to reconsider their decision so the current fans can be satisfied too.

But no, they instead tell us to use our imagination. I am already sick of imagining hard games, last I had to imagine that the island in farcry 3 (didnt play any other aaa game since) is actually island of deaf and blind pirates, because the only thing that could kill you there was an animal.

And fine, add easier difficulty in games, make H scenes skip option in VN so the person can never have to deal with any hard stuff or H content.

But don't take our hardcore/ero from the games!

Mostly because the current fans are small in number, bitchy and toxic to the entire scene, to be fair.

at least they exist though. And even though they might be some bad people, there is also lot of good ones.

Giving something to the current fans while also expanding to others (so in MoeNovel's case making both versions, one with H and one all-ages) would work just fine.

[sanahtlig]

You bring up a widely held fear among eroge players, that success of all-ages VNs means the death of eroge, that this is a zero sum game where one's gain is the other's loss. What you don't understand is that the English market for eroge right now is barely viable. JAST is slow because their Japanese partners don't put any effort into the collaboration, because it's not a priority for them (because the income they get is barely worth the effort). What good titles they get are usually license grabs from fan translators who are willing to sell the translation cheap. Mangagamer can't even get enough sales to license voices sometimes, and now they're churning out nukige because that's what they can actually turn a profit on. If all-ages titles become successful, JAST and Mangagamer aren't just going to start churning out all-ages titles for reasons in the link above. They're marked. On top of that, if they wanted to do something profitable, they wouldn't be selling eroge to begin with; they'd be selling pocky. Besides, they don't make games; they merely localize them. If a market exists for English eroge, there will always be those willing to step in and cater to it, whether it be JAST, Mangagamer, or anyone else. IF the market exists.

But the fallacy in the eroge vs. all-ages "battle" is that it isn't a zero sum game. Quite the opposite, the success of one FUELS the other because the fanbases are overlapping. Newcomers need to be eased into the genre. Anime / manga -> all-ages VNs -> eroge. Just as anime/manga build a susceptible population that are more likely to try VNs, all-ages VNs will do the same except much moreso. Once these players accept the VN medium (where gameplay is secondary to story or nonexistent) and grow to like moe dating sim elements, they're much more likely to become curious about eroge and give them a try.

[kazameltis]

Well it seems there are plenty of opinions that contradict each other.

Well sounds like the better alternative would be to actually build and run your own localization company. If you want eroges to get more translated just start your own localization company and see where it goes.

Well that is just a thought. I wonder what it's like for a fan to run a company.

[Steve]

Anime / manga -> all-ages VNs -> eroge. Just as anime/manga build a susceptible population that are more likely to try VNs, all-ages VNs will do the same except much moreso. Once these players accept the VN medium (where gameplay is secondary to story or nonexistent) and grow to like moe dating sim elements, they're much more likely to become curious about eroge and give them a try.

Well the difference in this approach is that you offer them what they already have in anime/manga, but with different, often much more complicated and "less comfortable" manner in VNs.

Anime/manga already has awesome stories and sure the people like it. And you offer them VNs, which also have awesome stories (often even better, but its hard to use that as argument), but they have to read much more text, not have protagonist voiced (for them it might seem like disadvantage even though I know its much better if the protagonist is NOT voiced for the immersion), have problems with patching the game, problem with resolution as the VNs are often 4:3.

So I think they are much more likely to decline like that.

Now what is my approach is the way I got into eroge [WARNING: STEVE'S HISTORY LESSON xD]. I started with anime "to try it" and after Lucky Star and Haruhi, I was already in love with the Japanese style of characters. And I went and tried Kanon (2006), I loved it so much, already downloading the rest of KEY animes. But after finishing Kanon, even though I was so touched by its story, I started wondering how things like this get to exist and where is it from. And I found out its actually from eroge where you can actually have sex with the characters. And instantly I was like "I must see it now". And after a very long time of googling in English (didn't know jack of JP back then) I was able to find the ero scenes from JP Kanon game on some russian video site (mainly I was looking for Nayuki). And the anime was finished for me, there was the finale I needed. (all this start with anime and then finding out VNs was within few weeks so I got to know about VNs pretty quickly). I then watched all the remaining KEY anime while also searching for how is the status with VN translation, first finding only some poor sites and I almost though that there is like 3 vns translated total as that was only website of some one group xD Well then I found Kanon, started playing and didn't finished (already knew the anime), I quickly downloaded Planetarian (that was was short) and went to play LB. And whats where I already understood the difference between anime and VNs, I get to choose what girl I end up with, ofc went for Kud and after finishing, I got the JP version and played the H from EX (not understanding even kimochi ii back then). Then I slowly finished the rest of the game (and loved the stories ofc). I even tried reading Kud Wafter with aggregator but gave up on that as it was too bad for me.

I didn't need any all-ages to "better adapt" to VNs, I got to them because of what it offered.

[END OF HISTORY xD]

The way I see the difference between anime and VN and why I ended up getting into VNs is the way the romance is told.

VN and anime both have great stories, I wouldn't argue that one is better over other.

But what is 100% better in VN is the romance. In every anime I watched before and even until now, [spoiler alert] NOTHING HAPPENS. By that I mean that there might be one kiss or something and that's it. Even in the ecchiest animes like nyaruko, to love ru, kiss x sis - nothing happens, the main hero there is just too dumb, he gets thousands of opportunities to be with the girls but there he is too stupid to act (ofc it is like that because of the rating and it is not hentai anime). Now it doesn't make the animes any less good, they are all still awesome comedies and I enjoy them for the fanservice.

BUT

Take what VN does - you get these opportunities, you get these funny moments with the girls in common, common is like the anime. With the protagonist not being voiced, you can much better immerse into the character. And you get to choose which girl you spend your time with.

And then, once you get to the route, thats where the difference lies. You not only experience great story like in anime, but you also experience great romance. As great romance that I even gave up on any real romance, because the one in VNs just wins. You get everything, from blushing while holding hands to the first kiss to the final achievement, the H scene. It is the reward, it is the bonus (together with the progress to it) that you don't find in anime.

When I was very young and internetless (thats a word!), I used to watch lot of those romance movies, where it always ended in H scene (ofc it wasnt porn scene but it was those after 22 movies where there was a bed scene). And it completed the romance in the movie. And then she died and everyone was sad but she became ghost and lived together with the guy, whatever the story might have been, could have been good, could have been bad. But the romance was there finished.

And you say this completion is something new people should avoid.

I say that ero there is something people don't know about (I certainly didn't know about it), maybe it is exactly because some people try to hide it and consider it a negative?

But H is the benefit of VNs, it is something that lured me in, it is something that adds a little extra to the story that anime also has. It is something that completes the bond in the romance, something that represents the "dating sim" aspect of VNs. Because if you date, you also expect to one day end up in sex.

And one friend who watched anime before me even asked once when I was talking about VN, "what is the difference from anime and why should I play it for the story if I can have that in anime too. I said "Well ofc the story is longer... AND... you get to have sex with the girls you pick"

And he already downloaded G-sen and said he wants to play Majikoi so much and can't wait for the TL. (not into loli yet.. but it might just take longer xD)

I will be repeating myself again as I remember I said this somewhere already. But hiding part of what VNs are, luring people on the "better acceptable" ones, trying to act like the medium is something else than what it really is - that is the bad way to make people fall in love with it.

I want other people to fall in love with what I love, that being the complete package VNs can offer (and what most of them are). Great story with dating experience and complete romance, finished with sex.

Well maybe I am actually the only one, the biggest pervert from westerners who got into eroge this quickly, basically from someone desperately waiting for swtor, interested in having the best DPS, withing few months I turned into a person enjoying naked lolis and sex with imoutos and all that, in his Hentai-bed invention, bed with display and control optimized for reading VNs. I didn't need years of tendering with all-ages games and such.

And no, I wasn't any pervert before that, I wasn't much into erotica at all, I was just elitist jerk raging at people who can't do solid DPS or good healing, who can't shoot standing target with a gun in a game. [edit: AND AT FEEDERS IN DOTA!!! (the original) xD]

So now I can only wonder "how many people like me are there"? How many just don't know that something like eroge exists, how many might even be ashamed to try it because of the "public opinion" on ero content. I might be one of few who can clearly admit what I like, I can say what I like and I don't care what other people think. I like loli, I like loli H, friends I know IRL know I like that (today I shown them some of the animated lolis from softhouse seal games xD).

But there might be people that are afraid of admitting they like something, they are afraid of what will others think. I am trying to reach to those people, free them of their fears and finally be able to enjoy what they truly like.

And as it seems, I truly like writing unbearably long posts... oh well, cant be helped xD But I am not ashamed for that (might be little sad thinking that nobody reads it anyway But I at least give myself a hope that at least one person reads it xD And it keeps me goin'!)

[RusAnon]

Guys, did you ever hear about offbeatr?

http://offbeatr.com/project/trials-in-tainted-space-46583939698

200000$ of donations for amateur hardcore text porn game. Now tell me again that there is no market for such games in the west. Sounds like lame excuses for poor marketing (not reaching your target audience) rather than problems with demand.

[Wahfuu]

Since I cannot quote that monster of a post, Steve, I'll just point out a few things here.

First thing, H is an element in certain visual novels. Only in nukige is it ever the focus. MuvLuv Alternative would have been better without the H, Chaos;Head has no H, Steins has no H and I think G-Senjou and Sharin no Kuni would have been far better stories without it. I really do not think H should be a draw. It should be what someone is looking for if they want it (More All-Age alternatives would be nice) and should be able to get if they do not. I think VN's are an amazing story telling medium and a beautiful character developer, and I think that the obsessive need (to the point where developers would tack on H-scenes in order to get sales) for sex scenes is really harming the model as a whole. It's why I hate MangaGamers flood of Nukige despite the reasoning behind it.

Although, you have a point when it comes to SoL moege. The goal would indeed to have sex with one of the girls at the end (sometimes randomly in the middle!) and I think that it's quite the draw for that certain type of visual novel. Especially for one like this. MoeNovel didn't just remove a 'bit of H.' They chunked out a huge portion of the VN's draw for a lot of the original fanbase and to be frank a lot of the actual game. It's only a carcass of it's original self. So, I'm still a bit torn here.

Second thing, on the off-chance this succeeds, this would benefit the visual novel market. I think, anyways. More money flowing into the scene is nice and we'd get more funding. I hope MoeNovel doesn't make a habbit of hacking up 18+ titles, mind, but besides that, this would help bring the market up. The market and scene we have isn't working. It's barely afloat. And the community is astoundingly toxic towards everything and anything related to visual novels. Something NEEDS to give.

I'd probably feel a bit differently if JAST or MangaGamer was doing this, mind you, but this is a new company and they are trying to do something here. And it's got quite a lot of hype behind it so far. I really don't want to see more butchering of original 18+ VN's though. It's not a good thing to make a habbit out of.

[Steve]

First thing, H is an element in certain visual novels. Only in nukige is it ever the focus. MuvLuv Alternative would have been better without the H, Chaos;Head has no H, Steins has no H and I think G-Senjou and Sharin no Kuni would have been far better stories without it.

Nukiges are nukiges, im not talking about those.

And what you say is that those games would have been better FOR YOU if there was no H, Just like I can say clannad or rewrite would be better FOR ME if there was H.

And since you mentioned steins;gate, take the normal anime watcher and try here explaining him why he should read the VN instead of watching the anime. There is more content - well he doesn't know if he will like it, so most likely less "ill try it" content is better. The anime is ofc fully animated and it is nicely split to 25 min episodes.

I really do not think H should be a draw. It should be what someone is looking for if they want it (More All-Age alternatives would be nice) and should be able to get if they do not. I think VN's are an amazing story telling medium and a beautiful character developer, and I think that the obsessive need (to the point where developers would tack on H-scenes in order to get sales) for sex scenes is really harming the model as a whole. It's why I hate MangaGamers flood of Nukige despite the reasoning behind it.

in the MG/JAST case it is a way to keep afloat.

But again, it is nukige you are talking about, those are sex porn games. But all the other good ones benefit from it. You can take fsn, it is a mature story with mature themes and so it also does have mature sexual scenes. It makes the complete package.

This is filter for JP games that have over 30 hours (long + very long) on VNDB, exclude Nukige and are on PC. http://vndb.org/v/al...ng-ja;o=d;s=rel

Those are the big games for last 3 years. And from all the 50 of them (yes I went through them all) there are 4 that are NOT 18+.

√W - port from consoles as the main dev platform

DC3 (and year after they still make 18+ version)

Code 18 - port from consoles

Rewrite - the only fully all ages game from them all (and probably the only one that can even afford it, as they have huge fanbase already)

and therefore:

Although, you have a point when it comes to SoL moege. The goal would indeed to have sex with one of the girls at the end (sometimes randomly in the middle!) and I think that it's quite the draw for that certain type of visual novel.

as you see it isn't just SoL moege. The good story driven games have it too, might be in the form of reward for the "going through the difficulties" with the girl where you as a reader can also be wrecked by the story intensity - the H there is then like the relieve, the reward for all the trouble of your heart. And when it is also linked to the story or at least to the humor (there are sexual references to the H scenes), it adds much more to the game than just the H.

The character development can be strengthened by the H as well.

It is what manure players on PC want, because it is missing in other forms of audio-visual media (videogames, anime, tv series)

Especially for one like this. MoeNovel didn't just remove a 'bit of H.' They chunked out a huge portion of the VN's draw for a lot of the original fanbase and to be frank a lot of the actual game. It's only a carcass of it's original self. So, I'm still a bit torn here.

And thats why I think that if they really want this market, PC is not the right way. These players who really can't stand H at all are more likely to be playing on consoles anyway, why not make one of the games like the mentioned √W on x360 or any of those psp games for teen audience.

Not to mention that people that already like the Japanese style of games without H already ARE on consoles, people who like JRPGs or whatever, they have their final fantasy collections and all that are much more likely to buy these all ages visual novels than the general people on PC, who are more into mmos, mobas, strategies - things that don't work on consoles.

There is a severe lack of mature content in whole game industry, you can count a single game like Witcher 2 but is that really almost all that is mature? You have games where it is childish story good vs evil and you are always the good guy. But why don't we get the "breaking bad" of games, the "game of thrones" of games (don't even mention GoT videogame xD, it doesn't exist!).

Most of the mature content can be in VNs and whats why I love them.

If they strip the only medium where I can find what Im looking for and try to make it all-ages, where the all-ages audience already has tons of other media, you know I will not be happy. Luckily I know that it will never happen in japan so in the worst scenario (all localized games becoming all-ages), I can still learn Japanese and keep reading the versions that are good for me.

[sanahtlig]

This is filter for JP games that have over 30 hours (long + very long) on VNDB, exclude Nukige and are on PC. http://vndb.org/v/al...ng-ja;o=d;s=rel

Those are the big games for last 3 years. And from all the 50 of them (yes I went through them all) there are 4 that are NOT 18+.

√W - port from consoles as the main dev platform

DC3 (and year after they still make 18+ version)

Code 18 - port from consoles

Rewrite - the only fully all ages game from them all (and probably the only one that can even afford it, as they have huge fanbase already)

You've shown that 18+ games are the norm in the PC market--in Japan. And that is in fact well established. Several Japanese developers have even commented that they just tack on eroscenes because otherwise the games don't sell. That doesn't prove your point in the Western market at all. It just isn't well tested. Hirameki tried, but they used that awful DVD player format that prevented saving. I do agree that all-ages VNs would probably work better on handhelds or mobile devices, especially tablets. Unfortunately, the mobile market demands short, cheap games, so the type of VNs we praise probably won't have much of a home there.

And again, there's a huge stigma against ero in the West, much moreso than in Japan. Comparing the two markets like that doesn't work.

[Wahfuu]

Nukiges are nukiges, im not talking about those.

And what you say is that those games would have been better FOR YOU if there was no H, Just like I can say clannad or rewrite would be better FOR ME if there was H.

And since you mentioned steins;gate, take the normal anime watcher and try here explaining him why he should read the VN instead of watching the anime. There is more content - well he doesn't know if he will like it, so most likely less "ill try it" content is better. The anime is ofc fully animated and it is nicely split to 25 min episodes.

Nukiges are still VN's no matter what. And have you ever seen a Key H-Scene? Like Little Busters EX or Kanon? They are absolutely garbage, without argument. Nobody can honestly say that it benefits the title without pushing believability. That isn't even taking the title in mind, that's simply shoving H into something for H's sake. This is a bit of a specific case with Key, mind, so. As for Steins, well, the anime is actually not a terrbile adaptation, but if I were convincing someone I knew about which one to go into, I'd probably say "If you want, you can play the VN. Better story focus, narrative and quite a deal more fleshed out.' Anybody I know would be hesitant to try the visual novel because of the H because then it's that damn 'Oh, those weird anime sex games' stereotype that the constant neccessity for H has ruthlessly enforced.

Say what you will, sex in visual novels does inheretly isolate it.

in the MG/JAST case it is a way to keep afloat.

But again, it is nukige you are talking about, those are sex porn games. But all the other good ones benefit from it. You can take fsn, it is a mature story with mature themes and so it also does have mature sexual scenes. It makes the complete package.

This is filter for JP games that have over 30 hours (long + very long) on VNDB, exclude Nukige and are on PC. http://vndb.org/v/al...ng-ja;o=d;s=rel

Those are the big games for last 3 years. And from all the 50 of them (yes I went through them all) there are 4 that are NOT 18+.

√W - port from consoles as the main dev platform

DC3 (and year after they still make 18+ version)

Code 18 - port from consoles

Rewrite - the only fully all ages game from them all (and probably the only one that can even afford it, as they have huge fanbase already)

I'm amazed you brought up FSN, whos H scenes are absolutely notorious amongst the community for being bad. But yes, a mature story can indeed have sex in it, but it does not make it the complete package. It can also make it a package with crap leaking out of the box. H does not make something automatically better. Regardless of opinion here, you cannot honestly tell me that sex automatically brings something to a higher quality then the other.

And what you said after just enforces what I'm talking about with the stereotype. The need for H-scenes regardless of the arts integrity has created a scene where developers would actively make their works worse just for fanservicey H scenes for sales within the fanbase. And it's going to keep VN's within it's very own fanbase and expand at such an inefficient and slow rate that it's hard to justify keeping it. Also, this isn't going to suddenly flood the english market with all-ages titles only. MangaGamer and JAST could possibly make a couple more all-ages versions of upcoming releases. They aren't going to start only releasing all-ages. MoeNovel might be strictly all ages but I think they'd get a bit too much backlash if they kept gutting games to sell them.

And thats why I think that if they really want this market, PC is not the right way. These players who really can't stand H at all are more likely to be playing on consoles anyway, why not make one of the games like the mentioned √W on x360 or any of those psp games for teen audience.

Not to mention that people that already like the Japanese style of games without H already ARE on consoles, people who like JRPGs or whatever, they have their final fantasy collections and all that are much more likely to buy these all ages visual novels than the general people on PC, who are more into mmos, mobas, strategies - things that don't work on consoles.

There is a severe lack of mature content in whole game industry, you can count a single game like Witcher 2 but is that really almost all that is mature? You have games where it is childish story good vs evil and you are always the good guy. But why don't we get the "breaking bad" of games, the "game of thrones" of games (don't even mention GoT videogame xD, it doesn't exist!).

Most of the mature content can be in VNs and whats why I love them.

If they strip the only medium where I can find what Im looking for and try to make it all-ages, where the all-ages audience already has tons of other media, you know I will not be happy. Luckily I know that it will never happen in japan so in the worst scenario (all localized games becoming all-ages), I can still learn Japanese and keep reading the versions that are good for me.

That is an incredibly broad and frankly pretty weird generalization of the console player market. The people who play on PC aren't just magically older/more mature because they play on the PC. I think there may be a hell of alot more PC players, but that only enforces the fact that PC is better. Condensing it to consoles would be a really bad decision. Make a niche, hard to get into medium that is for the most part a book for a condensed slice of the population? Maybe Mobile/Tablet. That's broad and pretty well suited to visual novels, really. Could work.

All localized games becoming all ages is not going to happen. Regardless of how well MoeNovel does. It's unrealistic and just seems like doom-saying. VN's are very hard to truthfully consider games. I don't really agree with the choice to gut a game and sell the scraps either, but if this does well, it benefits the scene as a whole. As long as MoeNovel doesn't keep smashing games, anyways.

[Steve]

And again, there's a huge stigma against ero in the West, much moreso than in Japan. Comparing the two markets like that doesn't work.

But then what are we trying to do, alter the medium so it is more accepted in the west.

Or alter the "general public opinion" so it is little more accepting - and people who enjoy ero can enjoy it without being the shame of humanity.

Because I think it is not that people in the west are more or less evolved or are different species. We are just as human as the Japanese people are and just like Japanese males, western male audience enjoys sexuality. And just like part of those Japanese males enjoys 2d anime style sexuality, part of people in the west enjoys it too.

And only because it is 2d and it is this sensation for mainpage newspaper line like Rapelay, people might be ashamed of it.

Yet all the American sitcoms which are basically sex series (well some are even called "sex in the city" lol) are fine? All the sexuality in advertisements and all that is fine?

I am not trying to necessarily change this view of western public. I am just trying to encourage people who like what they like that they should defend what they like and not care about other's opinions.

There might be someone who admits he likes 2d ero, being pointed at as pervert. I want him to say: "you shut up, with your movies where people are torn to pieces, you are just as disgusting person for linking it as I am for liking H - that being not disgusting at all!"

It just takes time, if they keep producing 18+ eroge for west, yes there might be some few first newspaper sensations, but over time, people will get bored of it and just accept it.

Just like it was with blood in games, newspapers and other news reports taking advantage of the controversy of the topics and earning money from it. But now, it is just accepted and people who try to make it into a sensation are being called idiots.

Nukiges are still VN's no matter what. And have you ever seen a Key H-Scene? Like Little Busters EX or Kanon? They are absolutely garbage, without argument.

I liked it, especially Kud H scene (and can't wait for Kud Wafter) and Nayuki from Kanon.

Yes there are better scenes in newer games (like in Hoshimemo) as Kanon is really really old.

The spreading of rumors of things being so unbearably bad are the biggest problem of all this, just like the whole VN community proclaiming some translation to be garbage where they are just fine. And when these rumors start to spread, they become the "correct information". (like Aaerus "magine translation" CnD'd - riiiight, now thing how many people actually believe that it was machine, sadly a lot)

Again sure, they are not the greatest scenes but I liked them much more than for example My girlfriend is the president scenes (especially with the terrible uncensor from JAST) - and I don't see people bashing those as much as they bash KEY ones.

But yes, a mature story can indeed have sex in it, but it does not make it the complete package. It can also make it a package with crap leaking out of the box. H does not make something automatically better. Regardless of opinion here, you cannot honestly tell me that sex automatically brings something to a higher quality then the other.

And I never said anything like that, it doesn't make anything better, it makes it complete. Just like horror movie is complete when there are people being killed, even though the horror aspect can work just fine without any killing as it is the fear that is supposed to cause the horror. But the idea of the death is what brings the horror into those people. In VN you can be just dating the girls and helping them with their problems and experiencing hardships of life, but the H, the finale, makes it complete.

For this kind of content I only have VNs, nothing else. Where as people who just like good stories have all other sorts of audio-visual media.

So when a company takes the uniqueness of the VNs, the important parts that I like about it, I am left with nothing. So I can say that MoeNovel is taking stuff away from me, they are taking good VN which could be translated by fans one day and making it licensed work - but taking away the parts I would be interested in. They are destroying what I love before my eyes.

I think there may be a hell of alot more PC players, but that only enforces the fact that PC is better. Condensing it to consoles would be a really bad decision. Make a niche, hard to get into medium that is for the most part a book for a condensed slice of the population? Maybe Mobile/Tablet. That's broad and pretty well suited to visual novels, really. Could work.

I wish this could be true, it would mean more developers (of big games) actually focusing on PC development xD But sadly the truth is there is much more gamers on consoles and they are generally younger. And that's why you see games consolified, bad PC ports. Those games just sell better on consoles.

And you see more mature games like Witcher 2 release on PC exclusively at first, because the more mature players are more likely to buy it for PC.

People grew up with the PC, I know older players who are 40 and even more.

So there is no magic behind it, is just how it is. PCs are more expensive for younger people, so they are more likely to buy console for 100$. Instead of mid-end PC for 1000$.

So selling all-ages version on consoles is actually a much better idea than on PC.

And it is true that mobile devices and tablets and such are even more popular, but long VNs don't work so well on them.

[sanahtlig]

So I can say that MoeNovel is taking stuff away from me, they are taking good VN which could be translated by fans one day and making it licensed work - but taking away the parts I would be interested in. They are destroying what I love before my eyes.

This really isn't a problem as those same translators could go work on something else just as good. Besides, they could just as easily re-translate the original with the H-scenes intact. Aaeru was C&D'd because she was "scooping" the localization. A small company is unlikely to care about a fan translation after the localized game is already released (and already being pirated). Large companies like Square and Sony are the ones super protective of copyright for its own sake.

[Wahfuu]

But then what are we trying to do, alter the medium so it is more accepted in the west.

Or alter the "general public opinion" so it is little more accepting - and people who enjoy ero can enjoy it without being the shame of humanity.

Because I think it is not that people in the west are more or less evolved or are different species. We are just as human as the Japanese people are and just like Japanese males, western male audience enjoys sexuality. And just like part of those Japanese males enjoys 2d anime style sexuality, part of people in the west enjoys it too.

And only because it is 2d and it is this sensation for mainpage newspaper line like Rapelay, people might be ashamed of it.

Yet all the American sitcoms which are basically sex series (well some are even called "sex in the city" lol) are fine? All the sexuality in advertisements and all that is fine?

I am not trying to necessarily change this view of western public. I am just trying to encourage people who like what they like that they should defend what they like and not care about other's opinions.

There might be someone who admits he likes 2d ero, being pointed at as pervert. I want him to say: "you shut up, with your movies where people are torn to pieces, you are just as disgusting person for linking it as I am for liking H - that being not disgusting at all!"

It just takes time, if they keep producing 18+ eroge for west, yes there might be some few first newspaper sensations, but over time, people will get bored of it and just accept it.

Just like it was with blood in games, newspapers and other news reports taking advantage of the controversy of the topics and earning money from it. But now, it is just accepted and people who try to make it into a sensation are being called idiots.

Liking what you like is fine, but railing against status quo and expecting everyone to look the other way is rather unrealistic. And yes, H has a huge, huge stigma behind it. Of course not everything is true and it is rather looked down upon and it isn't good, but people are not going to get desensitized to it through sledgehammering the method in. That is not how buisness works and that's not how you deal with a stereotype. The japanese are hesitant as it is bringing these games to the west, also. The scene doesn't need bad publicity and more stereotype enforcement on the hopes that they 'might get used to it.'

And I never said anything like that, it doesn't make anything better, it makes it complete. Just like horror movie is complete when there are people being killed, even though the horror aspect can work just fine without any killing as it is the fear that is supposed to cause the horror. But the idea of the death is what brings the horror into those people. In VN you can be just dating the girls and helping them with their problems and experiencing hardships of life, but the H, the finale, makes it complete.

For this kind of content I only have VNs, nothing else. Where as people who just like good stories have all other sorts of audio-visual media.

So when a company takes the uniqueness of the VNs, the important parts that I like about it, I am left with nothing. So I can say that MoeNovel is taking stuff away from me, they are taking good VN which could be translated by fans one day and making it licensed work - but taking away the parts I would be interested in. They are destroying what I love before my eyes.

Saying it is 'complete' implies that things without it are broken/unfinished. And that is entirely not true. At all. You can say you like H, you prefer H and I can say nothing against that because that's just story preference, but saying something is complete with H just is not neccessarily true and far too full-bodied of a statement to use. You are talking about H as the finale; It isn't always the finale. Most of Hoshizoras H scenes take place in the middle. And that's the kind of H I wish the entire VN scene would scrap.

Yes, VN's do that. They can really make you feel a connection with someone and make you feel rewarded when you get through it all. It's the characterization tools I always talk about that VN's do the absolute best in any medium. And yes, I can understand why you'd be mad about MoeNovel gutting a game and selling it. I'm not happy about that either. I think it's a destruction of the original artistic intent, but if this succeeds it does nothing but benefit the entire scene.

I wish this could be true, it would mean more developers (of big games) actually focusing on PC development xD But sadly the truth is there is much more gamers on consoles and they are generally younger. And that's why you see games consolified, bad PC ports. Those games just sell better on consoles.

And you see more mature games like Witcher 2 release on PC exclusively at first, because the more mature players are more likely to buy it for PC.

People grew up with the PC, I know older players who are 40 and even more.

So there is no magic behind it, is just how it is. PCs are more expensive for younger people, so they are more likely to buy console for 100$. Instead of mid-end PC for 1000$.

So selling all-ages version on consoles is actually a much better idea than on PC.

And it is true that mobile devices and tablets and such are even more popular, but long VNs don't work so well on them.

That is so wrong it hurts my head. The console market is in an effective crash at the current moment. PC has an ungodly chokehold on the gaming industry due to the indie scene. Even the mobile market is becoming more and more prominent. And from all the information I had, the console ports of visual novels are very iffy even in japan. I can't even remotely see most westerners using the console time to read a book. Taking a niche medium and putting it on a less prominent system is a bad idea.

[Mephisto]

Localizing an all-ages game : Okay

Taking out crucial plot devices since it might be stigmatized : Not okay

I agree that super plot-intensive stories like Fate Stay Night and even Hoshizora no Memoria to an extent could do without the H-scenes. (The ones in F/SN were AWFUL)

But if the scenes are important to the plot, then you can't just remove them... For example, if you removed all the H-scenes in Hoshimemo then there would likely be issues... since it's a romance story and the first scene sort of does "complete" the story. [although to be fair, I did skip through most of them anyway, and didn't read any of the second ones]

For example in Eien no Aselia, the localized version removed all the H-scenes. It was okay in most of the game since it is plot driven as well, but the lack of H-scene leaves gaps in some parts of the story.

Like why Yuuto was so scared of Tokimi since the H scene there was taken out

^But that wasn't even the worst part of it, since what happened could be inferred with some imagination. In Aselia's route, which I assume is the main one, they rewrote the story involving

kotori's abduction

.

That bothered me. And according to Sanah who played the JP version, I also missed out on a lot of inside jokes with Aselia that would've made sense if the scenes were there. Not okay.

I do kind of understand why they're trying to move against H though. Undeniably, it would sell better to the "western" world (or at least america) since there seems to be a pretty big stigma against openly revealing embarrassing activities. (People don't even like talking about watching porn, so they likely won't suggest eroge games)

I have a few friends who watch anime in real life, and I have no problem suggesting VNs such as Steins;Gate or Clannad to them. However, I would never mention things like Sengoku Rance/Hoshimemo/Kamidori. Although I think I did mention G-senjou no Maou at some point since that story is so powerful the H-scenes are pretty much irrelevent.

[Steve]

For example, if you removed all the H-scenes in Hoshimemo then there would likely be issues... since it's a romance story and the first scene sort of does "complete" the story.

Well even in hoshimemo the H would hinder some of the routes story.

Take Kosame

The H scene was used as a proof that she is actually "alive"

The H missing from the true routes would also leave a giant gap.

And many many of the inside jokes such as

Asuho

when he was making fun of her the day after, it was actually one if the funniest parts of the VN where he was talking about the stars with implications to the H scene

Chinami

the whole scene was very funny and it got some outside references outside of it, as well as it was the breaking point of the brother/sister romance without which the route would not be that good

Mokomoko

the teasing was priceless xD

And if there is stuff even in Hoshimemo where the sexual content really is low and only late game, Konosora which has much more sexual content will be completely butchered by the actions MoeNovel is doing. Which again brings us to the conclusion that they just picked wrong game xD

[Guest madoka12345]

*Brofists*

 

@madoka12345 - The industry is in a bit of trouble. If you want more VNs made and have the means, then please support the developers.

Yes you are right, I am sorry.

I would love more games like:

http://vndb.org/v5295

http://vndb.org/v4271

http://vndb.org/v8298

[Darklord Rooke]

I see. So, if you're supporting Nyatraap's dungeon crawler, a joint European and Japanese development team by the way, it will mean more nukige games made (and licensed) by Doujin company Morningstar. Which is a bad thing. Thank you for clearing that up. If anybody needs me I'll be off pumping money into Obsidian - I've always wanted Blizzard to make more Auction House games...

[Guest madoka12345]

I see. So, if you're supporting Nyatraap's dungeon crawler, a joint European and Japanese development team by the way, it will mean more nukige games made (and licensed) by Doujin company Morningstar. Which is a bad thing. Thank you for clearing that up. If anybody needs me I'll be off pumping money into Obsidian - I've always wanted Blizzard to make more Auction House games...

A bit of sarcasm.

Even if MG and Jast went out of business, I won't be missing them, all we get are shity nukiges which are not even worth the time and effort of torrenting.

And once in a great while we get something mediocre. get something like http://vndb.org/v1380 or http://vndb.org/v8213

[Darklord Rooke]

A bit of sarcasm.

Even if MG and Jast went out of business, I won't be missing them, all we get are shity nukiges which are not even worth the time and effort of torrenting.

And once in a great while we get something mediocre. get something like http://vndb.org/v1380 or http://vndb.org/v8213

 

Firstly, JAST releases a boatload of quality games. Their current lineup of upcoming games are as follows:

-Stein's Gate

-Hanacharisu

-Django

-Kikokugai

-Sumaga

-Seinarukana

-Starless

-Starry Sky

-Romanesque

-Shiny Days

-Osadai FD

-RAIDY 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Sweet Home

-Sumeragi Bitch

 

And let's not forget that they just released Yumina. Nukige is currently Mangagamer's specialty.

 

Secondly, supporting a developer does not mean supporting a distributer. If you don't want to support Mangagamer but can't read Japanese (but still wish to support the developer,) then import the game from Japan AND download the pirated version. The VN industry (and indeed the game industry in general) has been in decline in Japan for about a decade, possibly longer. They need all the support they can get and if they don't get any, then don't expect as many VNs to be made in the future. Personally I'm getting too old to be 'taking a stand against the man,' so I'll be buying the game from Mangagamer because it's the easiest way for me to support the developers.

[Guest madoka12345]

Firstly, JAST releases a boatload of quality games. Their current lineup of upcoming games are as follows:

-Stein's Gate

-Hanacharisu

-Django

-Kikokugai

-Sumaga

-Seinarukana

-Starless

-Starry Sky

-Romanesque

-Shiny Days

-Osadai FD

-RAIDY 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Sweet Home

-Sumeragi Bitch

 

And let's not forget that they just released Yumina. Nukige is currently Mangagamer's specialty.

 

Secondly, supporting a developer does not mean supporting a distributer. If you don't want to support Mangagamer but can't read Japanese (but still wish to support the developer,) then import the game from Japan AND download the pirated version. The VN industry (and indeed the game industry in general) has been in decline in Japan for about a decade, possibly longer. They need all the support they can get and if they don't get any, then don't expect as many VNs to be made in the future. Personally I'm getting too old to be 'taking a stand against the man,' so I'll be buying the game from Mangagamer because it's the easiest way for me to support the developers.

Uh steins gate was translated ages ago also

And starless.... yeah.

And Jast is probably in the lead in front of MG

 

And import? lol?

The games are usually about 90$ or something ludicrous like that for a one time play, NO replay value.

[Darklord Rooke]

And import? lol?

The games are usually about 90$ or something ludicrous like that for a one time play, NO replay value.

 

Yeah, prices are absurd in Japan. One day they'll learn that if they lower their prices a smidge they'll get more customers.

[RusAnon]

Or buy a VN in the first place, let alone this crap.

 

Because downloading it w/out paying is a crime, for example. Just because there's no RIAA/MPAA in novels market yet, it doesn't mean you will not suddenly get fined for few millions of dollars for your criminal activity in a few years.

Or because people spent their own time producing it, and expended a lot of resources. VioKa's work here is top-quality and I've enjoyed it. Its only natural for any decent human being to be grateful for other's efforts.

[Guest madoka12345]

@RusAnon

That is a good one,but from your little thing on the kona thread on VNDB I would expect no less.

I just would like to point out, you will never ever be fined a penny for a visual novel.

Ever.

No one gives a shit about a VN.

You think a ISP even knows what MG or Jast is?

Lmfao.

I got 2 notices, you think there for VN's?

Nba 2k12 and COD.

HUGE Companies.

It's a crap game which isn't even considered a VN in the first place.

 

Couldn't respond sooner because I got banned.