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Posts posted by Chronopolis

  1. Given i study for around an hour or so during weekdays how long would it take me to learn japanese to the level where i can speak and understand. Im interested in learning japanese and plan to start from june once my exams are over but once school resumes i will be really busy. I will have to make time for learning in between my regular time for studying, watching anime and playing video games so i bet it is easy to imagine how jam packed my schedule would be. So before i start i want to be able to make a proper schedule and basically I want to get to the level speaking and understanding before i get to reading and writing. I know learning a language is a lenghty process and I could keep on learning for my entire life, but even still I would like to know how long it might take for me to get to an intermediate level atleast.

    Just a tip, when you are starting out for hirigana and kanji, learn the correct stroke order!


  2. You mean Starcraft II?


    RTS seems a bit too ambitious for current VN makers to pull off.  Eushully tried, and even in their skilled hands the result was mediocre.  G.J? also tried, and the result was really bad.  Good RTS titles require beefy game engines that your typical shoestring VN budget won't be able to support.

    Lol good example. It was a great example of pandering to a fairly low denominator. TBH, it had the feel of your average western high-production value action movie, with the usual stab at a moral dilemna, emotional scene, big ships and explosions. I don't think it has the extensive (for better or worse) "feel-like-you-understand-every-part-of-a-character" level of character development that I think Clephas is talking about.


    Serious question: are you angry they don't seems to have grasped the western audience when making their product, and thus haven't pandered to them appropriately?


    Or perhaps that they are not recognizing the stagnant pool (objective lack of creativity, even lack of merit) that Japanese anime/VN's have entertained?


    And what made you think so? What is the way they advertised? The VN itself having same old tropes? I haven't had a chance to play the game since the demo got taken down.

  4. One serious question for BlankTranslations:

    Can you translate Aiyoku no Eustia?

    If there ever was a post that hit the bulls-eye so dead center on what needed to be said.

    It's not that useful, it's a mollycoddling pile of ... shit, useful only if you agree on the handholding method of edification. I'm more inclined to let people leap into the fire and see how many come out the other side *shrugs*.


    @Wahfuu: Nobody cares about you criticising the project. I take issue when your little translator friend and people on the forum start taking aim at someone individually. Blank's attitude sickens your little translator friend? Who gives a fuck. He's obviously got too much fucking time on his hands if he has the luxary to be sickened by the attitude of a fan-translator. Homeland thinks people like Blank is a toxin? I don't care for that remark either. And you defending such treatment? Get bent. I don't give a rats what you think is pathetic.


    @Chrono: Your argument is only valid if the translators themselves are translating for accolades. If they have, as you say, a deep respect for the literature, they'd translate purely to give the material the treatment it deserves. So YES, it's the TL's fault only one TL of each game is getting released, and if they want to complain about individuals being disrespectful to the literature in question, without first seeing the patch, then they can retranslate the game themselves, or take a seat and shut up. This teenage drama is what makes the VN community a laughing stock, the metaphorical equivalent of a grade-school playground. Grow the fuck up.

    Uh... do you really believe everything you've wrote? Not only are there more inconsistencies in your post then I can count with one hand, but you *are* reaching the level of flat out attacking people.

  5. My my, there's an awful lot of criticism being flung around here, good luck on the translation guys, should at least give people a chance before having a go at them. I look forward to trying it out. :)

    lol at least give the team a chance to prove themselves before you start witch hunting their asses. Seriously guys. Let them release that partial patch first.


    I feel like I'm reading a 4chan thread.

    I just can't understand why is there so much baseless hate. I'd understand if there was a partial patch showing how the translation looks and it was bad. But there isn't. Anything beyond that is pure imagination. Sure you can be worried or even pessimistic. But hating is going too far in my opinion.

    This team volunteered for a translation and you're posting such discouraging words. I'd feel very offended if I were him. Even if he himself admitted his japanese skill is not that good, you still can't judge a product that doesn't exist. You can be doubtful but at least give him a chance. 

    No one is saying that the translation will be bad. No one is bashing the OP.

    What people are arguing is their opinion that a bad translation (in general) is not respectful to the original work, and/or that it would greatly reduce the chances for a possible better translation.

    I think it's incorrect to sweep the arguments under the rug and suggest they shouldn't have been said, by considering them baseless hate/bashing.


    This team volunteered for a translation and you're posting such discouraging words. I'd feel very offended if I were him. Even if he himself admitted his japanese skill is not that good, you still can't judge a product that doesn't exist. You can be doubtful but at least give him a chance.

    Based on what the OP admitted, in this case it was reasonable to be doubtful. If one thinks that the result is likely to be bad, and that bad result could do real damage/conflict against one's beliefs, then it's reasonable to voice concerns.


    People calling posts out for just "discouraging the project members" aren't a new thing. But what exactly could be considered acceptable?

    1) It is not ok to make a post in a project thread that contains little to no merit, and which only serves to discourage members from continuing the project.

    2) It is not ok to go into a project thread and post something of probable merit that would likely be discouraging the team members.


    Pretty sure everyone agrees with 1). Point 2) seems to be a more a sliding scale, with popular opinion within fuwanovel being that "encouragement" is very important: one would only post something likely to be discouraging in an extreme case where the project members' efforts look very misguided.


    Different communities and people fall differently onto this spectrum and tolerate different ranges. What may be acceptable in some communities may not be acceptable elsewhere.


    So what arrive from this is this poster believes the merit of what is being said is outweighed by the discouragement factor, and that the disparity is great enough that that is unacceptable.


    I honestly want to lock this thread but this is just my personal opinion here so i won't act based on that but this seriously made me mad. Come on guys be a little reasonable.

    He also doesn't lock the thread, so at least tentatively, this case is not far enough removed from the enforced community standards to be moderated.

    Whether this extended debate should have happened another thread is another question, which honestly doesn't seem that important to me. Being in the wrong thread wouldn't make the arguments less valid.


    As for why this discussion popped up here... This thread announced a project on a popular VN, and the OP said things which lead to people voicing their concerns. This concrete example was as good as any a trigger for someone to jump in and post about another, broader topic (bad translations).


    In any case, to his credit, the OP has seemed to have taken this in stride. Hopefully the he also understands that the posts aren't  bashing the OP or this project.


    Later posts have contested the second point:

    Fact a) Currently translations/team members rarely ever pick up VN's with existing translations, meaning that a bad translation will rarely be followed by a better one.


    1) The current state of TL's not wanting to do retranslations largely comes from their own wants, which one don't particularly sympathize with. In any case, Fact a) is not a particularly valid as a argument against bad translations.


    2) It is very understandable and valid for a TL not to want to TL VN's with existing translations.

    -Lack of publicity/hype

    -Diminished result: Less people will use/benefit from the TL. I believe very few people reread VN's after new translations.

    And so Fact a) is NOT the TL's fault, and is valid to be considered a "repercussion" of a bad translation.

  6. He's looking for 2 more translators, and I assume there'll be tlc's as well. I don't think imagining the final product based on his knowledge of Japanese alone is accurate, there's too many other factors that could affect the quality one way or the other.

    Well if the other two translators and TLC are qualified, well then *that* is fine. That's not the problem. If you admit (and he admits) that his Japanese is not up to stretch, then he shouldn't be translating. A TLC's job is to double check for the TL and to make sure the post-editor lines are still accurate; it's not to mark and correct a consistently spotty translation. Neither the TLC nor other TL's can prevent the hit to quality caused by an incompetent translator, short of translating the lines in question themselves.


    Anyways, I think Rooke recognizes this as well, but he's like

    1) The translation might have some merits (e.g. good writing), and there are quite a number people who will enjoy it.


    I don't think multi-TLing is bad, only:

    a ) you want to keep things consistent

    b ) every TL has to be competent


    If you think you can do a better job than take on a project and do it, if not then stop complaining, shut up and be grateful.

    Stawp that. The fact that someone is unable or unwilling to take on an task doesn't take away their freedom to criticize other people's attempts at that task.


    Depending on your standards, it's also reasonable to believe that below a certain point, doing something that badly becomes unacceptable. It's not particularly friendly to tell someone to be grateful for something they find unacceptable.




    So I've seen the debate of allowing/supporting "bad translations/projects" versus criticizing and opposing them pop up from time to time, and have been wanting to take a stab at sorting this out.


    Some people tolerate or support all translation projects, largely independent of the quality. I'll call this a laissez faire to translation projects (not particularly concerning oneself with the quality). On the flip side, you have people who would rather not have these poor quality translations occur. Of course, you can't physically stop the group from doing it, so the alternate options are:

    a) criticizing the group, in a hope in convincing the project members or other community members;

    b-) complaining about such groups (distinguished by a lack of significant purpose or an attempt to convince);

    c) vitriol and slander (whether the original accusation is true or false);

    or d) investigating and pointing out bad translation works.

    {Note that B, C, D are 4chan's VNTL translation thread}


    Now this post isn't about what people do on either sides of the stance, it's the reasoning behind the laissez faire stance or it's counterpart. From posts in this thread and elsewhere, I've picked up on 3 angles of debate.


    1) Differing views of the Value of a Product: "Why would you spend so much time working on something to produce a product which I judge to be of little to no value (based on one or more factors). Based on my hand-wave reasoning/intuition, this is not really valid. People value things differently. Asking that is like asking "Why do you see things so differently?".


    This is the primary reason for supporting laissez faire translations (not particularly concerning oneself with the quality). If people want to take on the translation (various reasons: e-fame, perceived contributing back to the community, wanting to utilize their Japanese or other skills), and other people want to play the game, then who is anyone to stop them?


    2) Repercussions: A bad translation most likely *will* kill any possible chances for a good translation down the road. I think this is generally accepted as true. With that in mind:

    "Even if you stop this translation from going ahead there's no guarantee that the next one will be any better (the previous one by Yandere looked pretty bad as well, for example.)"

    This argument won't deter someone in the following (possible valid) mindset.  If only one release can happen and I see one that is unacceptable by my standards, I'll oppose it for sure and take my chances with the next one. If I think unacceptable = not worth doing = enough of a waste of time to be worse than not doing it at all, then the possibility of having the translation never be done doesn't deter me either. As a side note, the odds are probably pretty good that Eustia will get a translation within the next 5 years.


    3) Literature integrity: First of all, I think it's safe to say that the majority of us believe that VN's have artistic or literary merit.

    Here's one of the two stances: "I'm respecting the literature that the author put out. This is not a debate about intellectual property rights, it's a debate about respect for the arts."

    Honestly, I haven't seen any one state their reason for an opposite stance on this front. There's probably not a whole lot of room to argue against on this one.

    • If the people releasing the a bad translation misrepresent it as "good" and representative of the original work, then that's unacceptable for most people, I think.
      • As a side note, the people who would do bad translations are more prone to misjudging their capabilities. No group releases their patch calling it a bad translation. Even in the face of being pointed out, it's understandably difficult for the team members to acknowledge that, much less publicly renounce the fact. Overall it's not the most pleasant situation for both sides (this would fall under "repercussions").
    • If people for some don't learn that a certain translation they read was bad, and think the bad translation is representative of the original work, then that's definitely unfair to the original author. Whether this is unfairness is unacceptable or not, I don't know what people think about this. Note that people might discuss what they read and the popular (flawed) opinion might arise that is unfair to the original author.
    • If most readers are aware of that the translation is bad (it should be widely known to fall under this case), then they know at least that the translation isn't representative of the original work, though they won't be people to know *where* the inaccuracies are. They might be less quick to judge the original author.
      • However, I argue that people are still going to attach their perception of the translated work heavily to the original. Firstly, people are going to judge anyways because expressing one's opinion (on a work) is a pretty common thing to do, and you're not going to disclaimer everything you say or think with the the thought that sections could be wrong. It's easy to forget that a bad translation could possibly affect every part of the VN (you don't know as the reader). I think it's also disheartening to:
        • feel that the game one has had the chance to read (and enjoyed) bears a bad translation, and is inferior because of it.
        • confront the fact that the one's perception of the game is probably negatively impacted by the translation and any verdicts one makes is through that translucent screen.
      • As a result, I think in practice people don't give relatively much thought regarding a bad translation they knowingly read and judge. So the end result is largely the same (unfair to the author).

    In conclusion, I believe that Angle 1) are the primary reason why people would support laissez faire translations (not particularly concerning oneself with the quality of every translation). Angle 2 and 3 are basically all demerits to this stance. Namely, one would believe that the enjoyment held by the persons involved outweighs the closing of that VN to a possible good translation or any literary injustice.


    I think both stances are valid, but I get the feeling of inconsistencies creeping into some posts.

    TLDR: If you support X, consider your stances and the logic that would finally arrive at you supporting X. Make sure you are clear on what you disagree with. That's my two cents, anyways.

  7. Whoa, I wasn't downplaying the importance of the editors at all. The original translation was awful despite the very technically accurate translations.

    My point is that there's two levels to a translation here:


    2)Legibility in the second language

    Having an imprecise translation is no better than the awful English of the previous translation. 

    Ah my bad, I wasn't saying you were. The rest of my post was just speaking in general, or actually in response to one of Blank's posts.

  8. @Hometown and Life

    Thanks for elucidating the situation. I think I can put my thoughts into words now.


    I just finished watching that chase scene video and I can promise our translation will be better than that. If that is actually a part of Yandere's translation, then I guess we'll have to edit it. I could have sworn that they did a better job translating Fione's chapter though. At the very least, we can guarantee a coherent and interesting story. I'm pretty bad at Japanese to be quite frank, but we have really good editors. You can expect for this translation to be incredibly polished, far more than the Engrish in the sloppily translated chase scene above.

    While Eustia, having many lines of background and setting description, may be more suitable for that approach than most other visual novels, it is not acceptable to, for example, mistake the intention of a character when they are thinking/speaking, or the topic/object they are referring to (The characters are the strongest part of Eustia). With a weak TL and strong editors, your going to end up with effective descriptions and flowing text, but with spectacular errors every so often. It's not like the editor's job is trivial. Why make them pour their work into lines which might not be translated correctly?

  9. For those of you wondering, I think the ballpark is about 400 hours of real decently-directed study to go from zero to being able to start to read vn's with ITH without being overwhelmed, and another 400 hours (including time spent playing VN's) to get good enough to read basically all levels of vns with good understanding (with dictionary help).


    The time is there for most of us, the motivation and knowing what to prioritize is another question.

  10. I confess myself a little worried, because everything I've seen from Eustia's original TL pointed it to being a hyper literal mess.

    (this is a video from a chase scene in ch1 using the old yandere patch, IIRC)

    If that's the baseline, I'm not sure how excited people should be.

    I see, I see.


    The editor should have adapted the description lines into something that keeps the tension and has at least some impact in English, to say nothing about the naturalness of the voiced lines.

  11. study grammar -> play VN -> learn vocabulary from VN -> study more grammar -> play VN -> profit!?!? 

    This is the general structure.

    I recommend you study vocab from a list for the first 500-800 words. (Like do this list http://www.tanos.co.uk/jlpt/jlpt5/vocab/).

    My first attempt at japanese VN reading was Clannad at 800 words.  I honestly could not make any head way on VN's (even using Jparser) until I hit about 1500 words of vocabulary (http://www.tanos.co.uk/jlpt/jlpt4/vocab/). Even though I say that, the grammar is probably more important. I think most people underestimate the amount of grammar involved in any kind of VN.

  12. The most direct way to get used to the vocab of a work is to play the game/read the novel in question (assuming you have enough grammar and the difficulty isn't impossible).You see, different authors have their own vocabulary sets and writings styles. Failing that, you'll want to play things from the same genre and copy vocab from there. For light novels it would help if you could get a OCR'd copy of the texts.

  13. Stories focused around a circle of characters, rather than a series of events.

    Staying mostly in one location, where slice of life hijinks can be crammed in.

    Relationships (connections) between minor characters, coming full circle.

    Often neglecting to hint at the plot properly within the first 100 pages.

    Lots of dutch angles of characters in CG's, especially with the advent of widescreen VN's.

  14. 関西弁さいごやで!大好きや!もう関東弁しょうもない~。



    Having not studied them directly kanji's not my strong point. I still confuse kanji from words I know (sorting that out as I go), nor do know on-yomi readings for that many. I can read ordinary text (non-literature, non-specific) and usually get the main points of it without using a dictionary.  Going for N1 in December.

  15. When it's appropriate, I like to have "what if" possibilities developed properly. Whether those branches are even or are offshoots off a true end doesn't matter so much.


    In consideration of the feeling of "reaching the end" of a novel, a true end is much preferable.


    My ideal sort of Side Routes:

    -develop the heroine

    -build up the inner dilemma that leads to the choice(s) and show how the choice(s) the MC made differently reflect their resolve. Show what direction the MC develops in, in contrast to the other routes.

    -(necessarily) have a plot and resolution. This one is tricky to do when there's a true route, unless you have heroines/routes with different objectives to set up a plot around.

    -widen the player's appreciation of the setting

  16. 心底ほっとした = 心底からほっとした



    In contrast with my inability to ignore things, (shockingly),


    It looks like Sae was drowsy from having just gotten up and consequently hasn't noticed my excitement (abnormality).


    といったら expression used in emotion or surprise (http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/thsrs/17281/m0u/)

    スルー力 (スルーちから)

    なさ = 無い -> 無さ normalized

    っぽいー>っぽかった past tense



  17. Just a small correction:

    There is no "I am, like you", here.  Separating it out,






    The 1st part and the last part together just mean "I want to know"

    The 2nd clause is "a colorless girl like you"

    The 3rd clause is "what sort of color will you dye yourself with" or however you want to put it

    Putting it all together, "I want to know what sort of color with which a colorless girl like you will stain herself" or something like that.

    But, I still see nothing to indicate that the fortune-teller thinks of herself as colorless...

    Correct. I misunderstood and mistranslated that.

    {妾はそなたのような色のない娘}が  どのような色に身を染めるかが知りたい X


    This is the line that's bugging me the most here... Your translation makes it even more confusing somehow...


    That's cause it was wrong ;) .


    I also saw the "のも良いと思えるな"="X might be alright, too" and read it as ~いいと思うな=negative imperative *facepalm*.



    Thanks for clarifying things, zoom.

  18. Thank you! That line makes a lot more sense now!

    I tried translating 2 and came up with this:

    Fortuneteller: ……妾の言葉は、必要と思われる者にのみ与えられるもの。滅多なことでは占わぬ

    My words are a thing awarded only to those people who have a need for them in my opinion.

    Fortuneteller: だが、(girl's name)。



    However, (girl's name). Do not think lightly of going out with someone.

    Girl: えっ……、占ってくれるんですか?

    Girl: Huh... Are you telling me my future?

    Fortuneteller: 若葉の娘、そして無垢の娘。



    You're a daughter of fresh leaves and a daughter of purity at the same time. I want to know what color a colorless girl like you will take.

    Fortuneteller:: そう……、恋を知り、変わりゆく色を眺め愛でることも楽しいもの

    That's right. It will be fun to admire your color changing as you learn more about love.

    Are those translations even remotely correct?


    On a word for word basis it's alright, but as for reproducing the scene in English, it's not good at all. I put my attempted translation of the conversation on the


    Knowing what characters are referring in dialogue takes experience.

    Many words, usually concrete nouns, are easy to understand. Even if you don't know the word, you can look them up and be just fine. But then there's

    grammar, a lot of verbs, set expressions, and phrases which need to be learned and then encountered in order to be able to identify what their meaning in a passage or dialogue.


    For example: 若葉の娘、そして無垢の娘

    The titles are that exactly: titles. The fortune teller is addressing the girl directly using both of the titles.

    "Girl of Young Verdure! ...and (another title the target has or is given by the speaker is...) Girl of Purity".

    Personally I picked caught on this particular pattern long ago from watching anime. Things like can be tricky or next to impossible to look up. The best way to learn these is seeing them used in a situation where the speaker's intent is clear from context, (or you have a reliable translation, or you can figure it out beyond a reasonable shred of doubt).


    I wanted to point out this line as well.


    Girl: えっ……、占ってくれるんですか?

    て+くれる is used for other people's actions towards the speaker, and it shows the speaker's appreciation for the action/emphasizes the fact that what the other person doing is a "favor".


    やってくれる? is asking for someone to doing something for you "Can you do this (for me)?" <request>

    やってくれない?  Pretty close to the English equivalent: "Won't you do it?"  <request>


    やってくれますか? Straight up request. ("Would you do this (for me)?)

    やってくれませんか? Straight up request. More indirect and also a lot more commonly used then the first. ("Would you do this (for me)?)


    の (which can be ん) represent an explanatory tone. It's either the speaker saying something in an explanatory tone (possibly adding emotional investment), or in the case of being used in a question, seeks an explanation.

    やってくれるの?"You'll do this (for me)?" <not really expecting opponent to do it, and is asking whether the "the fact they are going to do it" is really true?"

    やってくれないの? "You're not going to this (for me)?" <sort of was expected opponent to do it, sounds like opponent showed a negative response or declined, and is is asking if "the fact that they are not going to do it" is really true?


    やってくれんですか? This is the same form as the TL line. Check the やってくれるの line. This one's the same except in polite form.

    やってくれないんですか? Same as やってくれないの except in polite form.

  19. I'm translating some random stuff and I need help.
    1) Girl runs after a fortuneteller, but she has to go back to class soon, however the fortuneteller says she doesn't need to go back. Much later it turns out that the class was canceled.
    I'm having trouble with this:
    Here's some context:
    Girl: あの……、どこに行くんですか?
    Girl: 思わずついてきちゃいましたけど、
    Fortuneteller: ……戻ったところで、無駄足となる。
    2) Another conversation I'm having trouble with:
    Fortuneteller: ……妾の言葉は、必要と思われる者にのみ
    Fortuneteller: だが、(girl's name)。
    Girl: えっ……、占ってくれるんですか?
    Fortuneteller:: 若葉の娘、そして無垢の娘。
    Fortuneteller:: そう……、恋を知り、変わりゆく色を眺め愛でることも楽しいもの
    Note: 若葉の娘 is fortuneteller's nickname for the girl
    This is all way too mysterious for me, so help?


    Thanks for providing the context.

    そなたが求める時間は停滞を示している is terrible to interpret in English, but I believe it's talking about the class.

    "(The signs) display that the period of time you are seeking has stopped progressing normally."


    The conversation is hard, as it uses a word with many different meanings (色) and has a metaphor, as well as not your everyday style of speech.



    Fortuneteller: ……妾の言葉は、必要と思われる者にのみ与えられるもの。滅多なことでは占わぬ

    My words are only for those whom I think it necessary. I do not divine over the mundane.

    Fortuneteller: だが、(girl's name)。

    Still, (girl's name)


    If you so desire... But do not think it well to accept (lit. accompany, to follow along) on a whim.  <Going directly from the Japanese, the "but" shouldn't be there, which confuses me a lot. The meaning of the two halves are clear, so I made up a connection.>

    Girl: えっ……、占ってくれるんですか?

    Eh?...... You'll tell my fortune?

    Fortuneteller:: 若葉の娘、そして無垢の娘。妾はそなたのような色のない娘が、 どのような色に身を染めるかが知りたい

    Girl of Young Verdure!... and Girl of Purity. I am, like you, a woman without {color}、but I wish to see which palette of hues you embrace.

    Fortuneteller:: そう……、恋を知り、変わりゆく色を眺め愛でることも楽しいもの

    Yes......To gaze and admire a {color} that changes as it knows love (for the first time) is too, a pleasurable thing.


    色 has other meanings, the ones I guessed as relevant was that relating to the beauty of a woman, or sensuality. "Color" is the naive definition and a passable substitute metaphor. You could just bold the word in the TL, lol.

    TLDR: I don't know what it means and even if I did the English would be a pain in the ass askdlasdlasdjlas *pulls out hair*.

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