[What are you playing?]

I'm not turned off by cliches, so I should be OK with Kanon

However, I think that now I may dive again into ancient times, and read San Shimai. I liked Sakura no Kisetsu, and this seems to be its close counterpart, made around the same time and using the same engine (although localized 3 years later, in 1999) - and they even share some backgrounds (like classroom or school yard) which is little surprising considering they have different developers*. Of course I'm going for DOS version again

As a sidenote to my above TA review:

Spoiler

It seems, that most agree that Tomoya dies in each version   Damn you Key, where did KeyMagic ^TM go when it's most needed?

 

*now i see - one is made by "TIARE" and other by "JAST", but they both were just branches/brands of JAST Co.

[What are you playing?]

I just finished Tomoyo After (without dunegon minigame) - I played official all-ages enlish release .

I really liked the interactions between all five main characters in "common route" or first chapter - it was really funny. Little Tomo was sweet, and I loved how she urged Tomoyo and Tomoya to "get along" Kanako could be little annoying at the beginning, but I actually liked her, and then she grew on me even more, as she is pretty important in later chapters, and does some great things. She shares some personality traits (and a voice ) with Haruka from LB!, whom I also liked.

Love between Tomoyo and Tomoya is great here as well - certainly doesn't lose to Nagisa x Tomoya

After reading here and there about bittersweet ending

Spoiler

I was afraid that writers would kill off either Tomoyo or Tomoya, but fortunately it didn't happen - although the epilogue made me anxious right to the end, as it was somewhat ambiguous. But the last screen gave us (and them) finally the hard-earned happy ending.

EDIT: Apparently, he dies in first (pre-Memorial Edition) version. And some folks at kazamatsuri.org interpret current ending the same way - with their reunion from last picture being in afterlife/dreamworld/whatever...

Music and art was beautiful. It was the first VN I played with voiced protagonist - it turned out well too. Translation felt somewhat rougher than Clannad's - and there were few lines I had trouble figuring out - but still it was okay.

Overally - not as great as Clannad itself, but still very good - 8/10

(the score above doesn't account the "Dungeons and Takafumis", as I haven't played that yet)

 

Now, what to read next - Kanon, or perhaps something from different creators for a change of pace, to avoid Key overdose?

 

[(8/1 update) Results of the honorifics survey]

 

6 hours ago, ittaku said:

To that end, what matters more - to weigh in with my opinion - is how much localisation the original text can "tolerate". Given translation's "lossy" nature, if honorifics are a huge part of the story - and they often are in charage where characters alter their speech according to familiarity and over time - then there will be far more loss in the story should the honorifics not have an English equivalent (and they usually don't.) That still doesn't make it wrong to remove honorifics if that's the style one wishes to go with; it's just much harder to convey the nuance in the original text without them.

That's exactly the point I was trying to make too, but you, as translator, conveyed it much better.

6 hours ago, ittaku said:

I've done it both ways now, and leaving honorifics in makes it extremely easy

Maybe that's why some call it "lazy"... but then sometimes it is "lesser evil"

 

21 minutes ago, El Mugaro said:

If a big part of the time spent on team discussion is on how to remove honorifics while keeping relationship nuances, you're better off trying to convince the project leader to leave them in. Like you said, charage doesn't tolerate the loss of honorifics and if you are all having a hard time trying to remove them then you're better off leaving them in.

On the other hand - if they come up with good solution, that will make really interesting read.

[(8/1 update) Results of the honorifics survey]

58 minutes ago, Clephas said:

Edit2: I am mildly curious about how editors/translators nowadays get around the inevitable 'honorific argument' that occurs in an obligatory fashion in almost every charage in existence with one or more of the heroines, where they converse on how to call one another...  I've seen a few really really awkward suggestions for dealing with it, but it gives me a headache just thinking about it.

Same with me. I can't think of a good way to do it without butchering the scene or sounding way more awkward than with honorifics in place. That's why I was surprised by this Dergonu's statement:

8 hours ago, Dergonu said:

unless it simply cannot be avoided, which is incredibly rare.

It should have disclaimer: "except for charages and moeges" And, unfortunately, if there are even few scenes that require it, it applies to whole game, as incosistency is probably even worse.

 

[(8/1 update) Results of the honorifics survey]

There was hilarious instance in Kazoku Keikaku (which is complete editing mess, with all possible ways of translation mixed up). In one scene Matsuri speaks to Aoba calling her "Aoba-neesan" which got translated as "Sister Aoba"

[(8/1 update) Results of the honorifics survey]

3 minutes ago, Kiriririri said:

Bad/lazy translators keep honorifics

Good ones don't

Simple as that

But if not-so-good translator tries to do it (that is, remove them), it's double disaster. (And good translators seem to be rare)

[What are you playing?]

3 minutes ago, wei123 said:

18+ or all-ages? You should probably try the latter since it has more content, especially in the epilogue (which imo is the best part of the vn)

All ages. I bought whole Clannad bundle on Steam summer sale. After hearing how bad Key's h-scenes are, I have no desire to read any of them. When applying tl-patches to Air and Kanon I used all-ages options too. (In case of AIR that included mixing two patches. Supposedly GaoGao translations' patch is better, so I used this, and then added numbered "seenxxx.txt" files that make replacements/cuts for h-scenes from WinterConfetti's all-ages conversion)

[(8/1 update) Results of the honorifics survey]

47 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

I can accept some expection, like when "senpai" is used as a pronoun it might be hard to find any English equivalent and a weeb reader won't be bothered by leaving the Japanese word in.

I think there can be more exceptions. Basically, every case where using of this or that honorific combined with first or last name is plot point, is explicitly talked about, and characters make great fuss about it. Like my Princess Evangile example from another thread. Recreating that scene (and whole Vincennes' "ecosystem") without using any honorifics at all would be really difficult task, and results may not sound good.

While it's true that every language has different levels of politeness, they may not be compatible with what we see in VNs. And honorifics in VNs are not only about politeness, but also about different levels of affection and familiarity.

Like, most highschoolers in VNs adress each other by "lastname-san" unless they are close to each other. In English we have only choice of using last name or first name. While sometimes "-san" could be translated as Mr/Ms among adults, in HS situation it would sound ridiculous. Using only last name may sound rude. And if we default to first name, then we may get away with it if there is no change in relationship. But then, what to do when they get closer, and switch to first name? Translation has nowhere to go.

21 minutes ago, ShinRaikdou said:

it's hard to adapt most part of it without butchering original meaning, especially in a situation when people moving from one honorific to another one or even try to speak without them (like love couple). Not to mention honorifics jokes that almost all moege has. Although, I don't mind adaptation of some honorifics like -dono or -hime, because they can be easily adapted without losing anything.

Also, if it's just generic "name-san" because it had to be there for basic politeness in Japanese, then chop it off, no problem

 

Side note: I don't like when there is too much discrepancy between voice and text (like character constantly uses last name but translation uses first). So with unvoiced titles, it is possible to do more of adaptation work without annoying the player

47 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

I think one of the most horrible things I've read when it goes to VNs was an EVN with Japanese honorifics in it. Just so forced, dumb and clunky...

Katawa Shoujo did nice job at avoiding it - Hisao just suggests to switch to first-name basis, they agree, and that's it Maybe not exactly realistic considering the setting, but definitely better than English writer trying to imitate Japanese speech patterns.

[What are you playing?]

3 hours ago, Ranzo said:

In my eyes she is one of the worst examples of a character who has a random illness that makes them weak. You know the illness that just makes them weak but might also prove fatal later on. These are the characters that are designed for you to feel bad for them and want to protect them.

There's some truth in this, yeah. So count me as one that easily falls for cheap tricks. After all, if it didn't work on anybody, writers wouldn't write like that OTOH there are some explanations for her illness connected to the Illusionary World (there was some discussion about that at kazamatsuri.org) [After story spoliers]

Spoiler

There are some speculations that her condition is somehow connected with "the place" (that place where Akio took her when she was dying earlier, he talks about it, later the hospital is built there) or even whole town. Same with Ushio, who is also the girl from the Illusionary World.

As I don't expect all characters to have strong or "interesting" personalities, I was OK with her. And, well, "love for her family" isn's some dismissable thing - it's pretty important for me. "She makes for a boring girlfriend, but great wife" - I'm not sure who said that, and if it was in-game or some forum post, but this quote fits Nagisa I think. "To love and be loved" - that's my dream.

Maybe that isn't exactly realistic, and indeed while playing romance VNs I often catch myself at thinking - "No way! There are no such girls as her! (at least not nearby )", but well, games are form of escapism, and man can dream, right?

Fuuko is cute weirdo, but certainly not bland.

All in all - I have pretty low threshold for suspension of disbelief, so unless there are GLARING plot holes or contradicitons, I just go with the flow of the story and enjoy the ride .

And, to stay directly on topic - now I'm starting Tomoyo After.

[What are you playing?]

Yesterday I finished Clannad. (with Steam's time counter at 67 hrs)

What can I say, it was great. @wei123 said that Tomoyo & Kyou were best girls, but while I love them, it isn't as easy to pick for me - they all were lovely. Tomoyo's was first "romance" route that I read (Misae's was more like an introduction to the world for me). Her and Tomoya were nice couple, I really liked it, but then...

I also love peace that Yukine brings, and her sweet, caring personality, I want to protect Kotomi and never ever leave her again, I want Mei and Fuko as my little sisters... Kyou is amazing girl too - I liked how she was on the same wavelength with Tomoya, and her ending had some really moving moments for me.

Spoiler

She reminded me of Hikari from Miagete - or rather it's other way around I suppose Hikari also loved the protagonist, but - in addition to being somewhat tsundere - she tried to pair him with Saya.

And then, I totally love Nagisa, and really like how her relationship with Tomoya was portrayed in VN. They need each other, and seem to be meant for each other and I totally get how she is main heroine. And let's not forget pair of greatest supporting characters I've seen - Akio and Sanae.

Spoiler

She did great job at being mother for Tomoya. His banter with Akio was hilarious. And all together they made really amazing family. Having such great in-laws seems like a dream, and goes against all stereotypes

AfterStory was great too, but saying almost anything will probably be spoiler...
 

Spoiler

 

First arc, showing how Nagisa and Tomoya's relationship slowly progressed was nice. Nagisa's death didn't hit me instantly, as the game was little ambiguous about it when it happened (maybe skip was too abrupt).

The scenes that moved me the most in the first AS run were Tomoya's reunion with Ushio (however I was mad at him in the first part of this arc) and reconcilliation with his father. Then, Ushio's last moments, oh my...

I don't have children, but have two little nieces that I really love, and children/family themes in VNs or anime always get me. I was in that minority of Sailor Moon viewers that didn't hate ChibiUsa

Kyou as kindergarten teacher was great too.

Strangely, the scene that moved me the most was Fuko's ending

Spoiler

when she starts to fade away at Kouko's wedding

That didn't only make my eyes wet, but it actually made me sob and cry. Thank goodness, that she finally got her happy ending too - I see that some readers dislike Fuko, but I can't. 風子ちゃんが嫌いになれない。　She turned out to be one of my favorite characters.

Now something about the game itself. Backgrounds were really nice, and characters were looking good too - I probably got used to Hinoue Itaru's style. Then, the music - that was totally awesome. My favorite tracks are melancholic song that plays during Illusionary World sequences, and both ending songs. I didn't have any issues with translation - it reads smoothly, and feels pretty lively.

So, after all, it seems like it's Nagisa for me. (BTW, I forgot to mention it, but oh how cuuute she looks in her waitress uniform )

So now, everybody sing:

"Dango, Dango!"

Great experience, 9/10

 

[Maji de Watashi ni Koishinasai COMPLETE!]

1 hour ago, Nier said:

How's Junai Road in comparison? Is it closer to Majikoi or more like Majikoi S?

It's OK I guess. I didn't feel as overwhelmed with h-scenes as it sometimes was with Majikoi S.

[Valve blocks the Steam release of Shining Song Starnova until the implementation of new filtering tools, gives no timeline]

Does that mean that all incoming VN Steam releases are in danger? Why now? And, considering that, how in the hell did Maitetsu get through? I'm actually waiting for SolPress' releases - Yotsunoha and Sakura Sakura.

[What are you playing?]

I'm still going through Clannad. For now, I have one thing to say -

Fuuu-chaaaan That feels train hit me really hard...

[And what about Key?]

1 hour ago, Darklord Rooke said:

Anyway on Little Busters, it may or may not be accurate but to be honest it isn't a nice read in english.

I could agree that it's more on a "bland" side, but that didn't bother me as long as there weren't broken sentences. At least for dialogues, I treat translation more like a subtitles, so as long as I can easily get the meaning, I'm fine. But indeed, if one expects "good english writing", that blandness may be a problem.

And after thinking about it some more, I have to admit that Clannad's translation is much "livelier" - and it's better that way. It looks like there were some liberties taken here and there (judging by length of spoken and written lines ), but it worked out really well - for example exchanges between Tomoya and Akio (I'm currently on Fuko's route) sound and read great.

Nevertheless, they kept the honorifics

Spoiler

But it is understandable - there are moments, where they are needed. For Kotomi it made great difference whether Tomoya called her "Kotomi" or "Kotomi-chan". Maybe I'm not smart enough, but I don't see good alternate way to translate it. With English name one could use its diminutive form (like "Annie" for "Ann" etc) - but then, that's what adding "-chan" does to Japanese names, doesn't it? So the alternative would be to translate names (or rather, give the characters new western names), and some anime dubs do that, but for me it would be horrible.

 

[And what about Key?]

20 minutes ago, Nier said:

english speech pattern

That's the term I've been missing.

It seems to me that the conflict is based on this:

 - For some part of readers (mostly native english speakers, I think) certain japanese speech patterns sound unnatural and wrong, while for other readers some english speech patterns sound wrong and unnatural in japanese setting.

I remember the comment somebody made in one of the discussions, that "No english-speaking teenager would speak like this" (it was about "reading the mood" or "moving your body" if I remember correctly). However, OTOH, I completely don't care what would American or English teenager say, and I don't expect Japanese characters to speak like them.

I don't think there is easy "one fits them all" solution, and I think it's impossible to establish hard rule regarding honorifics and similar things - it will be different for each story. For example, Fureraba did pretty well without them (even though it's set in Japan), but (as in my example in earlier post) I think it would be impossible (and pointless) for Princess Evangile.

 

[And what about Key?]

34 minutes ago, Nier said:

if it's a VN that takes place in Japan about japanese people, honorifics have no reason to be removed, honorifics is part of japanese communication paterns, it doesn't make any sense to remove them.

Yeah, this - if characters and setting are Japanese, let's not pretend that they are not.

[And what about Key?]

No, you can even skip it - as all other mini games too. With them turned off you can still complete the game.

There is only one exception - it seems that to get one of Saya's alternate endings ("School revolution") you need to have shooting minigame enabled. I followed walkthtrough, but with minigame disabled, and couldn't get it - as some conditions for this ending are directly connected to the minigame.

(All of the above is for the official release - LB! English Edition)

However, I really enjoyed baseball minigame - at first I also missed all the balls, but when I got little better at it, it got funny Those chibi sprites used during the minigame are so cuuute

Tip: use mouse for controlling Riki - with keyboard it would indeed be nearly impossible. AFAIR I kept button pressed to move him with the mouse, and released it to hit the ball.

[And what about Key?]

Let me add one more thought about the translations. I'm currently reading Clannad, and it indeed is fine. However, I didn't perceive LB! to be substantially worse than it. I started to wonder why , and it's probably due to English not being my first language. Thanks to that, many things that feel bad or unnatural for native speakers don't hit me directly. I'd probably be similarly critical about translations into my native language as Fred is about english ones. And if presented with not-too-good translations into PL and EN - I'd probably choose english one, because errors in it wouldn't be as glaring and disturbing for me.

[MILF But who doesnt have massive ta-ta's]

1 minute ago, tymmur said:

Quoting out of context makes it easier to make good joke replies.

True. Sorry for being fun killer

3 minutes ago, tymmur said:

Besides while they aren't state of the art in visual technology, I expected much worse when people referred to those titles as looking old. They are perfectly fine by my standards for story driven VNs.

I'm perfectly OK with old-looking games too.

[And what about Key?]

Your comment actually prompted me to buy CC - I got really curious how it changed compared to that initial release that got pirated.

I don't think it was bad - I actually enjoyed it, even if I felt that editor went a little overboard

[Looking for some non-depressing VNs]

I was turned off from Dracu Riot by the whole vampire setting, but if somebody likes such thing, and liked Noble Works, then probably they'll have fun with it too.

[And what about Key?]

Well, I think there are cases when they can be removed without any loss (especially when the setting isn't japanese), but sometimes the way characters address each other (and how it changes - last name, first name, different honorifics) is important plot device and they make great fuss about it. In such cases I don't see viable replacement - when you cut them out, some dialogues turn into nonsense*. So hard ban would be going too far.

Either way, they don't bother me at all when they're present, and IMHO it's "safer" to have them, at least in most high-school romances .

 

* As an example, take one of early scenes in Princess Evangile, where one of the girls explains to Masaya how you should address various people, using various honorifics (or none, in case of younger ones). With honorifics removed, whole scene is pointless, and it is brought up in different parts of the story too.

[MILF But who doesnt have massive ta-ta's]

Maybe he meant the games themselves look old? (because they are)

[And what about Key?]

Yeah, for me it's an exaggeration too. IMO It's at least decent.

Probably it doesn't follow some rules that Fred considers unbreakable (Like, I vaguely remember him saying that honorifics should be banned in translations) And I suppose he'd argue that we are so used to horrible TLs that we no longer notice their horribleness

[And what about Key?]

12 minutes ago, Nier said:

I have read it a few hours of it and I didn't notice out of the ordinary?

 

Fred, being an editor, has really high standards. I also didn't find anything bothering about LB! localization. It was smooth read for me, without anything standing out and throwing me off.