Scasma

I will make no effort in grandstanding by trying to defend my position by conjuring up some elaborate excuse, I simply like h-scenes because I'm a horny bastard. 
I've recently gotten allot of shit for rating some eroge higher than story centric visual novels on vndb. No, I don't think Funbag Fantasy has a better story than Kara no Shoujo, but they weren't aiming for the same goals. You can't rate a comedy on the same grounds as a action film, just as you can't yell at Stephen Hawking for being shit at baseball. I know that isn't what this topic is about, but I wanted to preemptively explain that before getting to the meat of the matter. 
The real question is how to feel about sex scenes in story focused visual novels. Well personally I like them, I'm the type of person that after becoming a fan of characters in fiction I look up fanfiction and doujin about them fucking. Having the porn in the source material beforehand is something I find incredibly convenient and a major time saver. Do I expect people to be fine with this? Absolutely not and I completely understand why people would dislike these elements in visual novels. Not everyone has a masturbation addiction to help deal with the condition known as "living", some people drink alcohol instead...... or they just like a great story to distract them from life. 
I find the question of whether "sex" can be used effectively as a narrative tool to be an interesting one. It's pretty common for people to cry out that an H-scene is "unrealistic", which always baffled me. We don't cry fowl when a FPS doesn't include a 40+ hour rehabilitation simulator after the player character is shot and no one complains that half of rom-coms don't end with a sloppy divorce. Fiction will always contradict reality on some level. I have never believed that a sex scene in any medium was "realistic" aside from Harry Turtledove books and quite frankly it kinda sucks. Realistic depictions of sex without dramatic flourishes are no different from depicting eating a meal or getting over a cold, it's just another boring part of life. 
Would I like more story centric visual novels with sex scenes integrated better in their plots? Absolutely, but as I stated before it's not that easy. Sex is a relatively boring act as a plot device, without going into FSN territory and inviting contrived reasons sex is required, it can only be used as a plot device in stories of youthful indiscretion, Romeo/Juliet rip-offs, and stories of jealously. In all three instances sex isn't even necessarily required and could be substituted with something else. Sex isn't as big as a deal as society makes it. Oddly enough I think the horrible act of rape is a much better plot device and something that society needs to be better and handling. This act of abject evil opens the door to a menagerie of storytelling opportunities, however if the writer isn't incredibly skilled and knowledgeable it will come across as a cheap shock tactic that is "trying too hard". 
 

I understand you are in the heat of an argument, but what he said does make sense. Most people that play visual novels in the US do not buy the Japanese boxed version of the game. In a perfect word, they would, as this supports the developers of the game and goes against piracy. I am guessing though that many people like visual novels because they can play on any computer, including laptops or windows XP, meaning many of us do not have very much money, and other more important priorities when it comes to money.
 
You are implying that Jiskra is selfish and egotistical because he refuses to obtain the game in a legit manner. I am guessing you have a very hard-line stance against piracy of any kind, including visual novels. this means you see no excuse for pirating a visual novel of any kind. that is a respectable stance, and it probably has worked for you so far. For other people though, deciding to prioritize buying Japanese visual novels over something such as paying rent isn't viable. Many have other more important financial obligations. Some people even have children. These people, who I would guess make up a significant portion of the visual novel community (judging by the ability of visual novels to run even without graphics cards on most PC's) would have to drop the VN's a s a hobby, and visual novels would become a lot more inaccessible as a hobby.
This would be bad for the Visual Novel companies themselves, as well as Visual Novel licensing groups. Since many of the fans of visual novels in the west do not have much money, they cannot afford to buy the Japanese version of every visual novel they want to play. Many can't even afford to buy one Visual Novel (college kids, etc.). Forcing them to buy the Japanese version of the game every time they want to play it would mean that Visual Novels would not be a viable hobby in the west. This would mean that many of the people playing visual novels in the west, the advocating for them to be translated and brought over here, would leave. The Visual Novel community would become much less accessible, and the licensing companies would make much less money. This is because although most visual novels fans do not buy every visual novel they play (the ones from Japan mostly), they do support where they can, and this support would go away if a hard-line stance against Japanese visual novels pirating was put in place. Hard-line morality does not always work for those of less-fortunate circumstance.
 
Keep in mind the person you are responding to in an angry manner had a very calm, even happy attitude in his post (as much as I can glean from text). He was not trying to incite you in any way, an was not trying to start an argument. You chose to respond in a heavily negative tone without any reason to, and without considering that his argument did have merit, and good reasons,e even if one concludes that they are wrong. Before getting incredibly angry over someone's post on the internet next time, it would be greatly in your benefit if you considered that they may not be dead wrong, they may have a point, they may not be trying to argue with you, and even if they are wrong, they may genuinely think that they are contributing to the discussion at hand. Screaming at them that their post is useless really doesn't help anyone on this thread, but it will cause you to lose credibility in your posts. Even if you are right about something, this behavior will dissuade others from agreeing with you, something I am sure you do not want.
 
Edit: I am not asking for a steam version. Please do not remove this post.
Edit: I am also not trying to rationalize piracy. I am saying that as a result of the imperfect world we live in, not everybody can play by hard-line rules, and there will be those that break them. Scolding those that do or saying they deserve what they got or something is forgetting that their circumstance is often different from yours. Your rules and moral system works for you as a result of your circumstance, but it is not the same for everyone. I would respect and understand this, as I believe this is important when respecting others. Piracy is a forbidden topic on this board because of the many different opinions on it, resulting from the many different situations people find themselves in. Piracy shouldn't be advocated here, but neither should hang and shame those who we find do commit it. That would not be conducive to this board.

When people talk about things being overhyped, the idea is that they praise a work to the high heavens, set an impossible standard for it, and ruin anybody else's ability to enjoy the work. What is really happening is a little simpler. When people like a game, they talk about it. They share their experiences. When people dislike a game (this works with anime too), they will generally drop it and move on. Mabe they will say something quick about it, but most people are more  concerned with finding works to enjoy, so it is not uncommon to find things we do not like in the process. When something is highly praised though, our expectations are set, and we feel let down and annoyed when they are not met. This is generally when people start to say it was overhyped, implying the high praise the game was given ruined it. 
This is simply a matter of personal taste. On an individual basis, people will generally spend more time talking about good works they have played rather than bad. With works not fitting in to their tastes, they will move on. On the internet, if many people like something, many people will talk about it, and people that didn't enjoy it will generally move on. This can create the illusion to some people that a game gets nothing but praise. Once again, on an individual basis, if people will enjoy a work, they will talk about their feelings. They are not trying to give a critical analysis.
As with anything, no matter how many people seem to like it, if something is not to your taste, then you simply have different taste. Anybody can learn to enjoy, or at least appreciate, almost anything, but whether the work is worth their time investment is completely up to the individual. Hype isn't generally the problem in these situations. Expecting your experiences to line up with that of others is. And it is completely possible, and is usually the case, for someone to find what you percieve to be bad writing, to be well thought out. This is not so much their lack of experience or education but their individual taste and the subjective standard of writing at work.
Nobody has failed you for not enjoying this game. It is simply not, at current, to your taste. Keep in mind, it is completely possible for you to learn to enjoy the game, as individuals can expand their taste. It is important to understand that choosing not to learn to enjoy it means that you do not think that it is, at current, worth your time (as time is valuable). This is very different from it veing impossible for you to enjoy, and the work has not failed any objective standard of writing, as none exists (just consensus).
 
Good god that was long.
 
 

So, I am watching anime. And I notice that there are many loli heroines in Anime. That's cool. Then I decided to watch Log Horizon. And I notice that the main character is Shiro. I did not notice this. It was a huge depravity of thought. In this show, especially evident in the second season when they both confess, you get the idea that there are two girls that like Shiro. I did not know this either. It was mindrape. Their names are Minori (a Miko Preist) and Asuka Langley Soryu (a ninja). Minori is actually 14 (as stated on the wiki), although it also states, and is evident in the show, that she acts much more mature than she is. Azusa Nakano acts as Shiro's main body guard and follows him around the entire show. Aside from using her ninja powers to protect him though, Anko Mitarashi isn't actually given much screen time or much character development, and all of her lines revolve around Shiro. She feels more like an ornament for the main character than an actual character. Heck, Alphnose Elric gets more character development in the ending theme than the actual show.
Log Horizon sets up these two girls to like Shiro. This means that for anyone watching the show, you are going to compare them. And since the audience identifies the most with the main character, how this comparison goes matters. Both Minori and Ami Kawashima look like loli's. The Shinto Preist acts much more mature for her age due to her experiences with her brother's crippling illness. the Ninja girl is a college student, so naturally acts her age. Therefore, they look and act approximately the same age. The difference is that as of episode 21 (the episode I am on), Minori is given much character development and a very sweet personality. She is designed to be very likable, and since she loves Shiro, she is designed to be shipped with Shiro (for people that like loli's and/or her personality).Minori also gets a huge chunk of the show where she is directing battles and put in situations where she makes decisions separate from Shiro and her existence as a character separate from Shiro arises. In other words, she is a very well developed character with a very likable personality. Akise Aru on the other hand is only shown following Shiro around, and all of her dialogue revolves around Shiro, as hse is never portrayed in the show unless the scene is about Shiro. Because of this, the show doesn't really delve into her personality as much, and she feels very much like an unimportant side character that's just "there". So you'd expect the logical answer would be for the show to pair Minori and Shiro together considering how it wrote itself that way. No.
What happens is Log Horizon has you fall in love with this amazing, well-realized character named Minori, who has great significance in relation to Shiro, and an actual backstory with him. And the audience (me) loves her. And then Shiro up and chooses the desk ornament. If the show wanted me to pair Shiro with Akame, why did it put so much effort into getting me to ship Minori instead. It should be reversed. (if you haven't noticed, I like loli's. My case still stand, though).
Here is a Neko for your patience with my long textpost:
My question is: is there any anime where a mature character (generally at least 18, or is portrayed/treated that way) chooses the loli heroine, and falls in love with her. One where the loli is an actual loli, and doesn't just look it. No more cheap excuses (but Sir,she just looks like she is 9). I want a show with balls.

The troll is strong with this one, yes.  Post strong trolls, you will.  But for maximum effect, you can't just give a bad review to a good - I mean, popular game.  You want to make sure to insult people who like popular things.  Never mind that something is popular because lots of people like it, liking a popular game automatically means that you have no taste.  If you really wanna troll, you can't just rate Steins;Gate a 6.  You also have to post a condescending review like this:
[sarcasm]Steins;Gate huh more like Steins;Grate amirite folks? Haha, all you folks out there with good taste know what I'm talking about.  I'm just shocked at how many sheeple there are out there that like this lowest-common-denominator crap [/sarcasm]

That's because in moege, h-scenes are actually used for relationship development, often very lazily. Amid all the moans and squelches, you'll hear a sudden barrage of "I love you"s and then the protagonist has an emotional epiphany over a few lines, before the moans and squelches start up again. This may happen for both characters, often in the first h-scene of the route. They also may develop the dynamic of who's in control of the relationship here and that kind of thing. It's lazy because they often forgo relationship development outside the h-scenes. They use the sex as a crutch so they don't have to build up a romantic and/or emotional mood outside of sex and probably the confession scene or whatever. 
The problem is that when you remove h-scenes from games that use them as a crutch, they end up predictably falling apart. The routes have that empty feeling to them because the relationships feel underdeveloped. That's completely valid to criticise when it happens, too. This leads to people saying that sex scenes in general are necessary for proper relationship development, but on the contrary, I feel like stories that don't use sex as a crutch often have stronger relationship development overall. Himawari is a good, recent example of this, in my opinion. The all-ages version doesn't have the h-scenes, obviously, but it barely matters because the way the characters and relationships develop still feels fairly natural. They also left in anything important in the lead-up and aftermath of the sex scenes. Because indeed, it's often the stuff that leads to sex and happens as a result of sex that's far more important to relationships than the sex itself. Himawari was written with that in mind, is much better for it, and loses nothing when you remove the actual sex.
Going back to the original question posed, I do prefer to read the uncensored original version whenever possible. But I'm not gonna hand-wring over it if I can't. It's often just not that big of a deal.

I said that those who dislike H-scenes are most likely doing so because the culture they grew up in probably taught them to be less comfortable about sex. I said this because based on my limited understanding of the world, the information i gathered led me to conclude that. When I said this, I wasn't emotionally charged, and was not thinking of any of you in a condescending fashion. I simply attempted to infer how and why you guys hold the opinions you do, and based on that, made the most logical assumption I could. I may very well be wrong. I am not in any of your heads, and have no idea if I am right. I am completely fine with any of you holding a different stance on H-scenes, and if you feel my guess on why so many people don't like H-scenes is wrong, at least in relation to you, feel free to tell me. I honestly have no idea if I'm right or not. I can only guess.
the reason why I wrote all that (yes, all of it), was because I wanted to solve this dilemma of mine by getting you to understand how I think of these scenes. Most H-scenes are badly written. I am not blind to that. Bizarrely, they actually do bring me closer to the characters, and I do end up enjoying the VN more. this is not because I am lonely, have no life, or simply think with my penis too much. I just think differently than most people. I guess I should change my question a little.
If several random scenes were taken out of a game, them being your average character building *spending time with characters* schlick, would you pay for the game? i don't mean would I buy it, but would you, personally, and why.

I lot of you are of the opinion that the censorship more or less doesn't matter because it doesn't impact the story at all. What especially stood out to me was the response "Basically, it's just porn" (Kurisu-Chan, 2). This is where my opinion differs from many of yours, and why I am so torn when the answers for others is so clear. 
To most people, the hentai scenes in these games is simply there for titillation, and adds no emotional impact to the story. The same thing could be accomplished through the use of a pornographic OVA on HentaiHaven. My opinion is very different from that, so before I say what I am thinking and why I believe that to be the case, I want you to understand that I am not insane. 
If any of you have ever played Steins;Gate, you'll get to a scene in the very beginning where Okabe buys his childhood friend a toy. From the way they interact, you immediately understand how close they are to each other. They are able to relay this feeling to you while maintaining the natural flow of the conversation so that it never feels forced. If they took this scene out of the visual novel, most people wouldn't be very happy. It is a small scene, less than 2 minutes, but has a huge impact when establishing the relationship the two characters have.
Apply this to hentai scenes. I have never played a visual novel (that is not a nukige) where the hentai scenes had little to no impact on the emotional tone of the story. You can go to my VNDB page to see the visual novels I have played. Keep in mind, I am very comfortable talking about sex. I was able to go to my parents and blatantly ask them about sex, and how it worked, when I was a child. In the west, sex is a very uncomfortable topic. People feel very awkward talking about it, and it is treated as something that, although everyone thinks about it, nobody should admit to thinking about it. It is considered dirty and thought to be incapable of adding to the value of art.
So far I have established that, for me, hentai scenes in fact do have a significant impact beyond mere titillation. I have only begun to explain why that is the case for me, and must do so, as my opinion is so outlandish to some that I do seem insane. I have watched hentai OVA's, porn, and played a few nukiges before. And I tend to get bored and don't usually finish (which is why I browse image sited for that sort of thing instead). Sex in real life, however, is unlike porn in the fact that is is heavily emotionally charged. We have sex with people we love, and it tends to come after the relationship buds and grows to a significant extent. What I am amazed by is how there are so few stories that capture sex this way. Porn cannot capture sex in this fashion, as relationships and meaningful sex takes time to grow. Visual novels, however, are the perfect fit for this. They tend to tell long-form stories, giving time to bring the reader and protagonist closer to the characters. Because these are not TV shows, they are not aired on TV and are able to be explicit about sex. This enables Visual Novels to show two people at one of their closest moments with each other. Visual novels are able to describe what characters feel during these close times, and can get infinitely more intimate because of this. Subtlety is important, but it is not the only way, not often the best way, to tell this type of scene. 
And this is why  I think H-scenes are so awkward to many people, and why they seem so badly written. I argue that much of the reason these scenes feel so awkward to read is because people simply feel uncomfortable about sex. Admittedly, a lot of the time these scenes are simply placed into the story, and don't hold up to the narrative flow of the rest of the VN. But this doesn't mean that they can't have great emotional impact even when they are awkward. Sex in real life is awkward (the manga Futari Ecchi is a perfect fictional example of this).
The sex scenes are censored in the west because they are thought to not add value to the story. This is a cultural thing, and reflects the way we think about sex. Many people feel as if the sex in the story brings no emotional impact to them, and I argue that this is because sex is inherently very intimate. In order to be affected by a sex scene, one needs to be very comfortable with the idea of sex and thinking about it intimately, as they are about to see to characters engage in it in a very intimate manner. If one is distracted by their own discomfort, they won't be affected by the intimacy the characters are feeling, and the emotional value of that scene will be lost upon that person. I do believe this is why so many people think of the sex scenes as simply porographic, when I do believe they are many times more, even when awkwardly written.
Taking all of the above into context, if sex scenes do have a dense emotional impact relative to the story, would it still be worth buying them?
 
Reading Nandemonai's post, this seems to be very much the way I view censorship. Thank you for posting.

Title says it all. I am new to posting on the internet, and can count on my hands the amount of times I have done so (in text). I do lurk quite a bit though, and have found myself coming back to this website as well as MAL time and time again. I don't exactly know what to say, as I am new to this, so I'll just spew out random non-inquiries. I have played a handful of visual novels, among them NekoPara, Say no Uta, Kara no Shoujo, School Days HQ, Steins;Gate, Imouto Paradise, and Littlewitch Romanesque. I greatly respect and follow the blogger and forum member known as Sanahtlig for his reasoning and argumentative skills and for his tempered attitude. I ran out of things to list (and need to sleep).
I do have one question though. what exactly are the ranks for? I assume they are related to the amount of posts you post. Is it a linear progression, aka you just receive a title? Or do you have a selection to choose from? I am currently a newbie, and I know there is a "Loli Protector" and "Philosopher" and a bunch others. I want one. Can I be Jesus (joking please don't kill me)?
Oh, and if anybody is a jerk in this thread, just be so incredibly nice to them they die of giggles.
*I don't know if I am speaking too informally or too friendly to you guys. I don't usually post, so cut me an unreasonably large amount of slack*

Wait, are you the creator of the website? If so, good job.
Also, I know this is a very fine line I am walking here, but I felt it necessary to clarify your rules concerning loli (just understand, not debate them). As I understand it, one is not allowed to talk about the ethics of the subject, whether it is right or wrong. That is for another time and place where people aren't so strongly divided. As I also understand it, one is not allowed t post sexually explicit pictures on this site at all, but must post links to them with warnings that they are NSFW. I am assuming that this is the same for loli content as well. that is also a good idea. 
What is less clear is what we are allowed to discuss in connection to the term "loli." I am assuming w can't vividly describe any sexual scenario in any fashion, as that would be text porn. But am I allowed to discuss my favorite loli characters? Or fetishes? Not trying to push my luck, I just think it is really important to get out of the way, as I don't want to end up on the wrong side of a ban because I didn't understand the rules.
Sorry if that gave me a bad first impression, but I felt that it was best to ask, as I like the character archetype and personally don't feel qualms saying so.
Oh, and all of those visual novels are among my absolute favorites, except for Littlewitch Romanesque, which is very endearing for me, but not reaching the level of the others. Many of the characters didn't feel as fleshed out to me. the other ones were also a bit darker and more realistic (in a dark, gritty, "Last of Us" sort of way). And I loved the art style of NekoPara.