kyrt

To be clear, Frontwing does not want an 18+ release directly associated with the Kickstarter, so at the moment we cannot offer them as tier rewards. The reason for this has less to do with "profit" than their cautious attitude towards releasing adult content in the West. There is a possibility backers will receive credit towards eventual uncut 18+ releases. We are trying to make this happen. The Vita edition of the games are M-rated and make relatively minor changes to non-sexual content, while adding new CGs and scenes. We do not plan to remove or "censor" content from the Vita game, and may restore some unnecessary textual changes where possible. Screw it I like the game too much and as long as the vita version remains textually and graphically unchanged then I'll go ahead and back this. Won't back huge amounts like I planned but I'll back enough for each game. I really should be more concerned about visual novels releasing here and changing perspectives than enhancing the idea that visual novel fans only care about pron. It has been confirmed that if the kickstarter succeeds the 18+ version will be coming a month or 2 later via Denpasoft (18+ version of sekai project?). It seems that Frontwing's reason for keeping a disconnect of the 18+ related to the kickstarter has more to do with their beliefs and more cautious attitude towards releasing adult content in the West. If it's mentioned on the kickstarter page the 18+ content will be more in the spotlight and possibly gather the attention of fools like equality now (rapelay incident) or CNN (akumatsu incident) (responsible for trying to villainize all visual novels, manga, and anime as child porn and violence against women). We can thank EN and CNN for a lot of visual novel companies reluctance to even try the Western market and to be honest although I think it's been long enough I do understand their concerns...so it seems less of a cash grab than I thought. The possibility of backers receiving cred towards the eventual uncut 18+ release is something sekai project is adamantly trying to make happen. I like what sekai project is trying to do. I will hope for the best and I'll go ahead and support this endeavor as long as no removal or censorship of the vita game is imminent. With this I am done on this issue and will take a risk with this. If it ends up working out then it will be great. Do understand that for all 3 games it is now less than 200 dollars (120) whereas before each game would have cost between 60-80. In this way they are giving some leeway to pick up the 18+ version after the fact for only about 40-60 dollars more (for all 3 together) than it would have been originally. If we get discounts we might even be fine. You also then would have two versions of the game one you could give away or read in public. “If you dare nothing, then when the day is over, nothing is all you will have gained.” -Neil Gaiman I'm gonna go ahead and dare. Dare that visual novels will find a means of being successful in the West. This is a new idea and a new method of trying things if it succeeds it could open up a ton of other possibilities...hell we already saw the results of one kickstarter via Clannad. This is the first potential All-Ages title with an attachment to 18+ content...sure it might not arrive right away but hell 2 of the games still remain untranslated and I for one want to see the story. I'm probably an idiot but I hope people will think on it and once the kickstarter pops up think about whether or not they want to see a spread of vns or keep it a few vns translated by dedicated fan translators and a few companies? This has the possibility to open up a lot of doors...

shame I couldn't delete this... funny enough I'm now considering backing it.

This has turned into too much bad publicity and a clusterfuck of confusion and the really sad part of this is that had it released before Clannad we might not have had any issue whatsoever. You heard that right the kickstarter for Clannad is most likely responsible for this new direction. Hell Frontwing seems to be under the impression that Grisaia is just as popular as Clannad in the West which is simply absurd. For one the anime is rushed and mediocre (and only 12 episodes). Clannad on the other hand was two seasons of 24+1 episodes. People had more time with the characters from the Clannad anime than the Grisaia anime. If the Grisaia anime had not been rushed it's possible we could have seen it up there with clannad in popularity...but nope anime not too popular. Anime is also not over and anyone watching it just had the entire first vn essentially spoiled for them. The fact Frontwing waited until after Clannad was put up and then we didn't get a response until after it succeeded (admittedly it made it in 1 day) shows me that Frontwing was waiting for the results of Clannad to determine pricing and how they would go about things. The fact Clannad an all ages visual novel did so well with kickstarter probably immediately made them think we can make double the profits by having two separate versions...it worked for Clannad. However Clannad is on steam and Frontwing is unsure of what will be accepted in the West for a popular game so they have to edit the already changed vita version to appeal to as many potential new fans as possible...all while neglecting the older ones. The removal of 18+ content was already a huge blow to them and so bad that it probably would make the new goal of 160,000 almost impossible to make it. We vn fans like our pron and do not stand for censorship or cut products...not a huge issue if the original game was all ages...but it wasn't. However they did a number of things wrong about this...first the kickstarter doesn't really explain that it's the non 18+ version and you really have to read all of it to tell...anyone who signed up for notice should have been sent a notice explaining the changes. The lack of any confirmation via trustworthy from Frontwing sources that we would even get the 18+ version. The lack of saying whether or not an 18+ version would still have mosaics or other censoring. A timeline for the release after the all ages version. Explanation that people backing would not have to pay for a game twice. If I want one version I only want one version I don't want to have to pay for both and I won't. I was planning to buy both anyways to give one to a friend who dislikes pron but then the second biggest problem of this whole charade reared it's ugly head. The All-Ages version while it would have new content and be a vita port would also be censored. Not just for sexual images but also for content. Not just any content but very heavy plot specific content that defines an entire character. This was the nail in the coffin but since just burying it wasn't enough they decided to add insult to injury by making the All-Ages Cut/Censored version only available via digital media.. This entire scenario has gone absolutely horrible and we can in part blame the success of Clannad for Frontwing's new insanity...probably. Even if we can't we can all admit this is a clusterfuck of epic porportions as far as this visual novel goes. So what can Frontwing and Sekai Project do to fix this issue before the kickstarter destroys any chance they had? It's quite simple and based on other visual novels on Kickstarter quite easy to do...the only question is whether Frontwing will do it to save any chance of this happening. + Vita-Port no censored/cut content. No dialogue changes whatsoever from the original game. + Have the 18+ version as a backer Tier reward. (This has been done numerous times and does not seem to cause problems with kickstarter itself). If the games are 40 (120 for all 3) then have a tier for 60 (180 for all 3) which is unlimited in the amount of backers available and gives these backers the All-Ages version plus The Original PC version with all content included...they don't have to explain the content they can just say Original PC version. (Even if they wanted to say ecchi they easily could as the list of games listed below will show. This idea also does not mess with Frontwing's own strategy for separate releases. The game for kickstarter can be backed for the All-Ages title and a tier reward bonus can be given of the Original PC game (two separate games with a slight increase in cost per game in order to get 2 versions. Once the kickstarter succeeds only the backers get the 18+ version until Sekai Project sets up the 18+ version of their company...and thus the games are considered separate pieces. + Don't have the additional cost for the Original Game exceed 20-30 extra dollars for each game... + Do this ASAP + Have explanations for the kickstarter on various sites for people to understand the ruling. + Do not censor/edit/cut any content from any version. + Send notices to all prefundia people that requested emails explaining the new decision. +Talk to the fans and find out what they are upset about. - by making the Original PC version a tier reward for backers it actually puts Frontwing in the position that they have to supply it and is more or less confirmation that said version is going to be coming. Honestly this isn't a huge issue to fix. It's simply a matter of whether or not people will be willing to do it this way and if they can correct the problem before it gets out of hand. Just my suggestions. The games that have done similar things Sunrider, Swords of Asami (Edo), Huniepop, and Kendo Crush and a bunch of other games have said there is nothing being considered at the time but later into the kickstarter change their mind...just to name a few.

according to sekai project: "Hi. We're sorry about the delay / separation of the 18+ versions, and we do understand why people would be upset. The 18+ games will come out if the trilogy is funded, and we're looking into options to provide some sort of credit for KS backers. Ideally, you will be able to back the trilogy on Kickstarter and then receive a discounted or free copy of the 18+ games when they're released. I can't make any promises about that, but it's something we want to do, and we will try to clarify prior to launching the kickstarter. Believe me, we have tried working around this issue, but the original rights-holders expressed a strong desire to maintain clear "separation" between the 18+ and M-rated products. With regards to "censorship," we have some leeway as localizers and may revert some textual changes made to the vita version where possible. And please keep in mind that a completely uncut 18+ edition will eventually be available, as long as the Kickstarter succeeds." so basically confirmation that Frontwing wishes to try for a cash grab (still think clannad's success is the cause of this). I will keep an eye on this but I honestly don't expect it to succeed now. I'll put minimum down for all 3 games but no more than that...need to save money if 18+ is going to cost money...I can just give away the all ages version (and if it succeeds I do intend to play and compare both games eventually so that might be interesting. Shame. Oh well time will tell.

Honestly I would love to support the kickstarter but if they plan to edit the All-Ages version as well my code prevents me from supporting it in any way. I have strict rules against censorship of text and this would fall under that. If they do not edit the all-ages script then I'll probably support them as well (minimum money necessary for all 3 games) and then hope they give vouchers or something for the 18+ version down the line. With the new price range for stuff it's actually comes out to about half the amount I was willing to back in order to get the all ages and 18+ version...so while I am currently not going to back it with the knowledge of an edited script (they probably took out sexual humor and the like) if they change their mind on that and "promise" to release 18+ later then I'll probably back it. - interested translator: Did you read the quote from koetsl? he says many scrip edits in the jp vita scenes that do not seem necessary to preserve an M rating in the US...they are cutting dialogue and the only dialogue I can see getting censored is of a sexual nature. So this has plenty of chance to go the same way as IMHHW based on that evidence presented by koetsl. Admittedly I'm making an educated guess based on what I think is most likely to be cut to retain an M rating but there it is. I just looked at the picture and that will probably be cut too if dialogue is being cut then images definitely will be...or she'll be wearing a towel or swim suit or something.

according to koetsl: "I'm confident that many of the jp vita script edits in these scenes are not necessary to preserve an "M" rating in the US". - say goodbye to sexual anything in the visual novel...half the jokes will probably be gone now if what koetsl sees is what they go with. This is looking like If My Heart Has Wings problem all over again. The only difference is we have a glimmer of a chance at getting the proper version if the kickstarter succeeds. Also reading the terms of service on the kickstarter they can bypass the entire H-content issue by simply having a patch available via the website for free and say all backers get a chance for an extra version after the initial release that will return it to its original state. As long as they don't mention the content but also make it impossible for people to not pick up maybe they have a chance?. I believe the only thing in kickstarter's term of service is porn essentially cannot be displayed on its pages...there have been plenty of games funded by kickstarter that have added H-content. The upcoming huniepop and the visual novel sunrider are just two examples. If the issue is kickstarter they could always do Indiegogo (if this is the right website) which allows adult content. I'll be honest I highly doubt kickstarter is the only issue. It seems the all ages people now have something to worry about to and it's not just the 18+ or Riot crowd. This is really turning into a clusterfuck of bad decisions...oddly enough I have no ill will whatsoever towards Sekai Project and can only imagine how painful it must have been for both koestl and the sekai project crew to hear this possible ultimatum from Frontwing or hell Kickstarter if they are behind this (why someone hasn't made something like Kickstarter that allows adult content I'll never know). I definitely know Koetsl is probably unhappy as hell right now...maybe I'll get the high profile raising sim or Ef or something instead. I'm now really worried for any future attempts at visual novels via crowd-funding services and find it unlikely that I'll back them in the future so as not to risk another debacle that this has potential to turn into...let's hope they see reason/commitment/confirmation for the actual kickstarter/funding thing.

The only good bit of information to come out of this is that the trilogy for the all ages version has been lowered to 80 dollars for the trilogy digital or 120 for the trilogy physical...which means that technically if you were planning to spend 300 dollars for the 18+ version then if they still release the 18+ version later for the same cost as the all ages version then you've actually be spending about the same amount but have 2 copies of each game. I just don't see 18+ coming now and find it very unlikely that the all ages version will get supported in response. I am not giving up hope mind you I'm just very cynical at the moment. Currently I have no intent to do anything but honestly I trust koestl and if he says the adult version is planned a month or so after then I might be willing to still support this...if nothing else I imagine he or sekai project would be willing to release a patch of some sort. I'll wait and see if they make no mention of the 18+ version in the kickstarter then I'm done for the moment. But yeah the blatant cash grab is definitely not a good sign and it will affect the amount of people willing to support. Guess we'll have to wait and see. If this is the result of kickstarting visual novels then I'm done. Clannad will have been the last visual novel I back via kickstarter. I've never really liked this way of doing things to begin with because it leaves a lot of potential bullshit that can happen (not finishing, poor translations, cut content, etc...) but also because these companies are not spending any of their own money on this venture. This to me tells me outright they have absolutely no interest in our market. I really hope I'm wrong and hope Frontwing comes to its senses...but I find this unlikely.. Definitely a stupid stupid rule...poor Sekai Project this is going to hurt their credibility probably the most. Just posted by Sekai on the forums: "Hey everyone, I know some are disappointed with the situation, trust me there's quite a few things that had to be resolved: In the industry (I'm referring to Japan in this case), all-ages and 18+ versions of the same game are considered COMPLETELY different products and thus why they are usually promoted separately. In this case, they want that to be very clear on the separation of the title's content. There's also that pesky cause in Kickstarter AUP that does not allow adult content. I don't have any further information besides what has been said by koestl and what I just posted." So it seems part of this has to do with KS's clause on pornography (other games have done so in the past but I'm pretty sure the emphasis wasn't overly on that there would be such. As for the separate product thing...that's complete bullshit. If the game was in production and they only had one version first then that could understand but having all the content and still releasing it differently is nothing more than a cash grab. Hopefully Frontwing and Sekai Project will address the issue of the 18+ version and also realize that people who want the 18+ version have no interest in backing the all ages version since it doesn't get them the version of the game they want. Hopefully this information will get to us ridiculously quick as already people are beginning to talk in disgust with this decision...

It's not happening. They've shot themselves. I'm probably not doing much to help matters since I fully support disbanding any attempt at the all ages version. I can't blame anyone. Now if the 18+ version had a guarantee of being created after the initial and if it were actually available for free for backers then I'd be more inclined to support it. However one must ask themselves why did decide against it? Do they have no intent to ever release the 18+ version? Is this merely a cash grab to get people to buy both the all ages and adult version of the game? Is this the result of the Clannad Kickstarter and do Frontwing believe themselves capable of going toe to toe with Clannad in the popularity in the West department? Honestly I see this as nothing but bad news. I honestly don't see them making their already ridiculous goal now more than ever since they just alienated a third of the fan base. I'm highly doubtful I'm going to support it anymore...and if I do end up supporting it then it will be for the absolute minimum amount now. I'm unhappy with how things have turned out. I'm hoping that if the first one fails then Frontwing will realize that they made a mistake...and if that doesn't happen then guess that's that. I'm rather unhappy with the poor business sense happening and find it a bit unethical to use kickstarter as a means to get fans to pay twice for something they should only have to pay once. It doesn't help that this incident is pointing out all the problems I have with kickstarter as well how Frontwing plans to do business. I also do not believe any of this is sekai project's fault so I have no issue with them and can only imagine the abject horror on their face when Frontwing got back to them with this announcement. I also am under no delusions when I say that Clannad is why Frontwing changed their tune. They realized thanks to the clannad kickstarter that people would pay for an all-ages visual novel and that they could sell the adult version on the side for profit if they wished later on...assuming they have any real intent to do so. Unfortunately this is nothing but bad news as they are nowhere near the level of popularity as Clannad (most of the people willing to support it will take offense to no 18+ content...since most of the current fans have already played it with the H-content). This will cause people supporting this to lessen and frontwing will see the low interest and think that no one would want the 18+ portion and thus not release it. Honestly this is horrible news.

Snow Drop has a very winter feel to it. I cannot say, however, that it's any better than any of the other visual novels mentioned...probably a reason no one has mentioned it yet.

I'm gonna say for the trip Tsukihime as you can turn off the H-content before beginning meaning you can actually play it without worry in public (if you do that). I am also going to say for the medium one seiken no ignarock for the reasons explained above. All of these visual novels are great reads though so if you don't want to follow the poll don't feel forced. You won't go wrong with any of them. I don't think all the games for Rose Gun Days are fully translated which is probably why it isn't getting voted on too much.

Not sure if this thread is considered dead or not but I'm currently undecided on this visual novel and wouldn't mind some discussion about it. Is this visual novel supposed to be any good? From everything I've seen and heard of it the game sounds very much like a very artsy nukige title but I feel as if my initial preceptions of the visual novel might be. So what are some of the positive points to this visual novel? Is the gameplay any good...does it take away from the characters or story? Basically try to talk me (or anyone else) into buying or ignoring the visual novel if you can. I've kept myself relatively in the dark about this game but have had some poor experiences recently and now wish to find out a bit more before dropping money down on it...admittedly I could always try it first but I like supporting games when I can. edit: I'm beginning to feel as if this should probably be in a different thread sorry if it's in the wrong place.

I find it being better than MLA very difficult to believe. MLA had 2 games prior to it to develop the characters and from my basic understanding Schwarzesmarken had 4-5 light novels? The first two games in the muv-luv series might not have been super interesting but they definitely helped build up the characters for muv-luv alternative. We also went into muv-luv alternative without any knowledge of what was to happen. How is Schwarzesmarken going to be able to keep the mystery of the universe alive when we as readers know what is going to happen? This does take place in 1983 and I'm sure they can build up likeable characters and the like but what is going to be different. What is going to make it standout from it's predecessors? Don't get me wrong I really hope this does well and although I might not see it for another few years (assuming it's good enough to translate) I do look forward to reading it and I hope it gets a proper translation...shame Age isn't interested in any overseas market yet.

Screw it I'll give into the pressure and go ahead and be merry this holiday season, sign me up.

I will be ecstatic if it actually manages to get a translation...and if it's actually any good. Admittedly I'm also waiting for plenty of the other parts of the series to be translated since I'm not going to get to read them any other way. I'll keep an eye on it for sure.

Quality over quantity. However I believe that longer visual novels have the potential for a better payoff in the long run. I can only think of a few short visual novels that came anywhere close to the impact that the longer ones left me.

Hell's bells how did I forget Clannad!? I corrected my above post with a link to the clannad kickstarter. It might have been something with the first poster commenting they didn't like Rewrite so none of us suggested it to them.

I like buying visual novels whenever I am able. I just bought a few via steam recently although I prefer buying physical copies over digital copies. Recently though I've been a bit more cautious with buying games and have been waiting for responses/reviews about quality in the translation or whether or not content is edited or missing before I buy anything. Jast games I've usually given the benefit of the doubt and picked them up in the past but quality checking has been skimmed over on past games and sometimes they get rid of content or censor etc...so I'm a bit more cautious. If it is a game I am unsure of I also will wait for it to go on sale first. Likewise I often wait with mangagamer titles because I like pickingup hard copies. I also kickstart when I am able...WAS, Clannad, Grisaia (planned), Fault One, etc... I generally buy one or two visual novels if they are something I'm really looking forward to otherwise I wait til end of the year or other big sales and see if there is anything worth picking up.

Happy holidays/christmas/kwanzaa/hanukkah/Zagmuk/Hogmanay/New Years! Always fun to see giveaways being done so feel free to sign me up.

You know what I'm gonna go ahead and try to do this. So we're gonna read and discuss Forest then? I haven't read this one yet so sounds good.

I finished Grisaia recently...ended up loving every route except for Makina's which while not bad was just the most underwhelming of all the routes in my opinion (the backstory for the MC was great though). Still a great game and fully intend to help kickstart the trilogy. Easily in my top 5 now. With Grisaia done I just started Comyu and it's intriguing so far but I'm not close to invested in any of it yet? Any suggestions for a route order or just go with the flow?

Generally my favorites are anything by type-moon because the sex scenes in game while hilarious seem forced or just poorly written. If you liked steins;gate give Chaos Head a shot although vastly different and CH is for some reason ridiculously hard to find. Ever 17 (and remember and Never) are brilliant games and definitely worth reading. Higurashi and Umineko are wonderful but they may make you think...just don't think too hard (umineko in particular probably has a place in my top 10). If you want gameplay in it then Aselia isn't a bad game to check out. Honestly a lot of good all age titles. I've compiled a list below of some of the better ones out there (not necessarily great maybe more mediocre for some). Either way check review scores, read a description, ask around the forum, or whatever there is quite a bit to choose from. Either way hope this list helps. 9 Hours, 9 Persons, 9 Doors (gameplay and 3DS) Aselia the Eternal (has srpg gameplay) Brass Restoration Chaos;Head (licensed by JAST) Cho Degeki Stryker Da Capo Innocent Finale Dysfunctional Systems Episode 1: Learning to Manage Chaos Ever17: The Out of Infinity Eve Exodux Guilty Series Fate/Stay Night (Realta Nua patch) fault milestone one Go! Go! Nippon! ~My First Trip to Japan~ Hatoful Boyfriend Higanbana no Saku Yoru ni Higurashi no Naku Koro ni Higurashi no Naku Koro ni Kai Hourglass of Summer (US DVD release) If My Heart Had Wings (technically...) Juniper’s Knot Kanon Katawa Shoujo (H-scenes can be disabled in Options) KIRAKIRA All-Ages Version Koenchu - Tale of the Voice Actress Little Busters! Lonely Yuri Moonshine Narcissu 1st & 2nd Never7: The End of Infinity Paca Plus Paca Plus: Minus Paca Plus: Plus Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney (technically you need 3DS) Planetarian ~The Reverie of a Little Planet~ Starry☆Sky~in Spring~ Remember11: The Age of Infinity Rewrite Rising Angels Rose Guns Days: Season 1 + 2 Sakura Spirit Steins;Gate Steins;Gate 8-bit ver. Sunrider (free vn you can download) Symphonic Rain True Remembrance Tsukihime (H-scenes can be disabled during installation) Tsukihime Plus-Disc Umineko no Naku Koro ni World End Economica vol.1 Yo-Jin-Bo Coming soon?: WAS- The Hourglass of Lepidoptera Nekopara vol.1 huniepop (more of a dating sim/puzzle game) Grisaia no Kajitsu (if kickstarter succeeds) sword of asumi my little dictator Sierra Ops Starlight Drifter Eden Mahoutsukai no Yoru Yoake Mae Yori Ruri Iro na- Brighter than Dawning Blue kendo Crush Clannad

I imagine shiny days will get censored/cut as well...I'm hoping Jast will actually say something about what is missing and that we don't have to wait to find out or have them mention it on a site the average buyer wouldn't normally go to. It doesn't help that the translation quality and releases recently have been plagued with other issues the last few times as well. They say little witch romanesque hasn't had any content removed but it might still have first release bugs to work out. In regards to the cut content possibly being the bestiality I have to wonder if Lightning Warrior Raidy III will get the same treatment...on that matter I'm pretty sure Raidy II had bestiality in it so what's changed if that is the actual content that has been removed? Now admittedly they have not yet posted anything on their main website yet (they often did blog posts telling people around release time what content was removed) so it's possible they still will. The main problem is the ethics behind what they are doing right now allowing people to pre-order the game without the proper knowledge of the content surrounding the release. Even if they say something in the future they are probably already getting some people pre-ordering it right away not knowing they are getting screwed over. They are definitely trying to get the casual uninformed buyer to pick the game up regardless. Now admittedly the missing content probably does absolutely nothing harmful to the game's story as this is a nukige (I believe) but still wish they could keep ethical business practices. It definitely makes me cautious for other games getting released by them and I'll probably never trust them enough to buy a game ahead of time ever again. Now because I realized how difficult it is to actually find the post I've linked it below so people don't have to search all over for it. http://jastusa.tumblr.com/post/104468063735/starless-available-for-preorder#notes

So Starless (vn novel by the artist of bible black) is currently available for pre-order on J-list and Jast USA but I would urge caution. On the tumblr page that they have they actually confirm that they have removed some content from the game but do not specify which and ask that you contact them so they can contact you about what is missing. To my knowledge this is the only location that even mentions this cut content. Now admittedly Starless is not the type of visual novel I have any interest in whatsoever so the affect on me regarding the game is minimal. My biggest concern is the fact Jast USA do not mention that it has cut content anywhere on any website outside of tumblr as this seems to be misleading and false marketing in many ways. What exactly was the cut content? I've heard rumors that the game has bestiality so my guess is probably on that but unless you get in contact with them and ask directly they won't say. I personally cannot stand censorship of any sort and of all the visual novel companies to release games in english Jast has constantly been the offender regarding this issue (X-Change 3 and Family Project just to mention 2). If you can't release the full game don't bother to translate it and pick up something that you can. So is anyone else concerned about these sale practices of Jast USA or do you think they will own up to the fact they've cut content when it gets ready for golden master (allowing people to pre-order without the knowledge before hand)? Do you think they will do this again in the future with any of the games that they've picked up? Or is this nothing more than a premature overreaction and we have nothing to worry about in the future? Do people still intend to pick this game up?

Unfortunately my only good condition PC decided to call it quits on me so while I wait I am rereading Planetarian and then plan to check out Sunrider (installed and restoration patched it). Does anyone know if Sunrider is any good. It is free and on steam and might be playable on my backup PC (really old XP) so was curious if anyone tried it yet. edit: just remembered I was on part 11 of Time Travelers on youtube so if no one knows anything about sunrider I might go back to that.