Pabloc

@Vokoca I got Grimoire here. Not very helpful, I know. As for insects, don't worry - it was just one scene, so you should bee all right. (In terms of bugs, Claes is the best eroge I have read so far). And yeah, Asami is awesome. She's one of my favorite VN protagonists, I'd place her even above Rance. @XReaper I like dark and twisted eroge, but every single title from Black Lilith that I have tried so far was nothing but disappointment (I didn't even manage to finish most of them, and they are quite short...). I don't find them that dark really - their girls are always incredibly slutty and enjoy getting raped so much that it kinda doesn't seem like rape anymore. Plus, their titles feature far too many girls with huge boobs - from their main characters I think only Yukikaze isn't a total turn-off for me.

I used to dislike nukiges, but that was only because almost all translated titles are crap and/or are completely irrelevant to my interests. Only SonoHana series is really good (and those are probably my favorite nukiges even to this day). My opinion about nukiges significantly changed after I started reading untranslated titles. I picked a few of those at the beginning, because they are easy to read, and I bumped into plenty of actually interesting titles that exceeded my expectations by far. From relatively normal titles (https://vndb.org/v2104, https://vndb.org/v10658), up to stuff that's everything but normal (https://vndb.org/v4766, https://vndb.org/v4866, https://vndb.org/v12678, https://vndb.org/v10636). All of those had basic, but sufficient stories and characterization that made all those H-scenes much more interesting. The gap in general enjoyability between those titles and stuff available in English is quite enormous - I actually liked quite many nukiges that I have read in JP, while I couldn't even bring myself to finish half of the translated stuff that I tried (and they are short...). But I generally prefer titles with high sexual content that are NOT nukiges. Those obviously have better storylines and characterization, and usually have higher overall quality. Thanks to that, they often beat completely ero-oriented titles not only in the plot department (that's obvious), but also in H-department (higher quality makes up for lower quantity). Some of my favorites among such eroge would be https://vndb.org/v13987 (that is also my favorite VN/RPG hybrid), https://vndb.org/v11999, https://vndb.org/v3977. And also https://vndb.org/v4767 but only for the story and presentation - even though it's 80% sex, I wouldn't classify it as porn at all.

^ Converting to romaji works only until you misread "carp" as "love" (both can be romanized as "koi"). MeCab/JParser work very well for easy VNs, but the less common words something uses, the less accurate they will be. And even in simple titles, they can get some stuff wrong. Plus, reading without looking anything up is simply faster (and as I mentioned above, romanization doesn't exactly solve all problems, because many words have the same reading and different meanings). Btw., don't call those two tools "machine translators", it can be confusing. I never used Romajidesu, I prefer offline dictionaries.

Machine translators are utterly useless and don't help with anything, but like Kyoroto mentioned, there are other programs like JParser and MeCab, and those actually work. They basically provide you with an instant dictionary look-up and can also add furigana to each kanji (that is - reading of each character written in hiragana, katakana or even normal letters). With that, you can read without knowing kanji (as long as you know the grammar - and I mean know it well). The more kanji and vocab you know, the faster you read, but actually reading VNs is the best (and most enjoyable) way to learn them. Edit: Oh, I was a little late, the above 2 posts explained everything quite well.

From what I have seen, this project looks exactly like this. It's FAR worse than KonoSora - it doesn't resemble English language at all, and the TL quality is about as inaccurate as ATLAS (whether MTs were actually used or not is irrelevant, the quality is similar). Editing this thing is absolutely pointless, because if any competent translator will touch it afterwards, he/she will have to re-translate everything from scratch, so edited lines will land in the thrash. First, it needs a translator who actually knows both English and Japanese (both, not neither, as it i in this case apparently). Then editing, and then TLC.

White-haired pettanko with a schythe and paganism/wicca themes are definitely relevant to my interests, but... It's not Yuri. It has male protagonist, who sounds generic to boot. And lack of H combined with a heroine flashing nearly nonexistent panties and sporting a rather minimalistic bra kinda smells like ecchi (and I'm not a big fan of that genre, it's like a demo version of the proper 18+ stuff). Also, when I see Itaru's art even in a mildly ecchi context, it kinda makes my eye twitch. Even though this particular VN isn't made by Key... >_< I'll probably ignore that, unless the story will turn out awesome or something.

Hmm, let's see. My top 3 favorite VNs are Saya no Uta (short) Katahane (medium) and Ef (long). And among my favorite anime, I have Kuttosukiboshi (2 eps), Iriya no Sora, UFO no Natsu (6 eps), Death Note (37 eps), Princess Tutu (38 eps), and both Gundam SEED and SEED Destiny (50 eps each, 100 in total). ... Now what? In short - everything should be exactly as long as it is necessary for the plot and characterization. Longer titles give you more time to grow to like (or hate) characters and can have epic, complex stroylines, but short ones can deliver a lot of emotional impact as well (Planetarian, Narcissu). Only as long as they are done right - otherwise you can get a horribly bloated yawnfest or a tiny, forgettable story. Length itself doesn't matter. How said length is used is the important thing. Pointless fillers can ruin a story just as much as insufficient characterization or overly simplistic plot.

^ Some people say the current patch works, some that it doesn't, and some that it works but has a ton of bugs. So - no guarantees.

@InvertMouse Samples: From Kotori's route (with some minor spoilers for common route): https://vndb.org/t5268#11 From thins' routes (spoiler free): https://forums.fuwanovel.net/index.php?/topic/1461-kono-oozora-h-scenes-porting-project/?p=190114 Common route is bad, but more or less understandable. However, later on it's a total mess. It's filled with errors. Also, believe me - you are NOT okay with H-scenes being cut out from this particular VN. Not when one of the routes is all about progressing from sexfriends to proper lovers. With even the slightest mention of sex axed, this route got turned into an absolutely incomprehensible gibberish. There are plans to release an updated patch for the Steam version. It will include re-translated scripts from common and Kotori's routes - still a bit rough and unedited, but definitely much better than the official "TL". Wait a few days.

Oh, I always read though those. But well, I'm picking such titles because I'm looking for interesting stories with high (and preferably wicked) sexual content in the first place, not (just) for fap material. That aside, context, story, characterization and good writing in general can really make the difference here. Nukiges usually fail in that department (with some exceptions), that's why many of those are very dull, even when the HCGs alone seem interesting. On the other hand, in something like https://vndb.org/v3977 for example, some consensual scenes that look completely generic on HCGs, were actually very nightmarish and heartrending (not to even mention all those tentacle rape scenes and stuff - the writing really adds a few levels of horribleness to everything there). Good stuff. Awful, but good. ^^

^ Well, I posted the first few lines from that troll-patch on VNDB (https://vndb.org/t3752/2#31), and then a comparison with Google TL and ATLAS (https://vndb.org/t3752/4#93). If your patch is actually in English, it might have been edited a little. But, that alone won't change the fact that this """"translation"""" is about as accurate as a blind sniper suffering from severe Parkinson's disease. Unless it was completely re-translated by a human with working brain at some point. I haven't heard of any real TL projects of this VN though.

So, there's no reason to correct lines that contradict each other, miss the context completely, or are close to gibberish? Are you telling me it's not a problem when Akari babbles some random nonsense about the "club with motivation that is a little strange"? When Asa pretending to cry is considered an honest reaction? Jesus? Windmills that blow around in the wind, look simple and easy, but are kind of incomplete? What was this crap even supposed to mean? Nothing about those lines was fine. True, some errors were rather minor, like "sky" replaced with "birds" for no reason (though even that is noticeable, because they don't mention birds ever again and only talk about the sky). But, fixing them takes no time at all, so why not? Otherwise, all those lines had severe mistranslations that completely twisted the original meaning and, on the long run, made the whole thing confusing, inconsistent and generally a pain to read. So no, there was a very damn good reason to re-translate them. Ummm... from the Japanese lines? And I'm not an editor, I'm TLC-ing and pretty much re-translating half of this crap from scratch. It still wasn't edited, or even proofread. I agree with that, but there's a limit. A company that turns an award-winning work into a trainwreck and sells it for actual money can be criticized. When the same company releases that trainwreck again, on another platform (to grab some more money) and without bothering to correct any mistakes - then they should stop. Same with stuff like Flyable Heart and Kiminago troll-patches. When something is a blatant copypasted machine translation, there's no room for any constructive criticism.

So you're basically saying that re-translating completely screwed up, out-of-context BS into something actually sensible is pointless? Did you even read those examples? Also, you say that people shouldn't criticize translators at all, but then you go ahead and do that yourself (while utterly missing the point to boot). Double standards? Also, you say that adding a honorific somehow made the line worse (disregarding corrected translation), but for some reason you weren't complaining that MoeNovel was using honorifics as well, only inconsistently. Double standards, again? Could you please stop contradicting yourself already? When the original is as bad as IMHHW, such editing would be nothing but a huge waste of time and resources. It's like applying makeup to a rotting corpse - sure it looks better, but it's still dead. And kinda stinks. A lot. Solid TLC bordering on re-translation is the only approach that isn't futile. Probably.

^ As long as converting character's speech in such manner doesn't completely screw up characterization and such conversion is consistent, then yes it's not bad per se. That's beyond unlikely though - using peculiar speech patterns most of the time will affect how readers perceive a character, and that in turn will lead to inconsistencies (because the character wasn't written as someone eccentric, so his actions won't fit his new image). Besides, it's absolutely pointless in translations (localizations are a different story).

It's exactly as you said - people who care about writing, do learn Japanese. But, usually it isn't a decision you make as soon as you discover VNs. It's safe to assume the vast majority of Western readers start with translated stuff. And as you pick up some basics and vocab, you will start noticing that what voiced characters say sometimes doesn't match the text. Not to even mention VNs that are translated so poorly they barely make sense (like Divi-Dead in my case - I didn't know much Japanese back when I have read it, but it was painfully obvious translators were just making up random stuff). Then you get more and more annoyed by TL quality, and you finally end up learning Japanese (or you do that because you run out of interesting stuff to read). I have finished over 100 titles in English before I even started learning Japanese (and another 30 or so before I knew it well enough to read comfortably). And even now, my reading pace in English is still faster than in Japanese, so I will pick translated titles occasionally to save time (when it's something I don't have high expectations for, like Killer Queen, or something I don't read exactly for the story, like SonoHana). Of course, I can only speak for myself, but I'm willing to bet many people who know Japanese had similar experiences. So yeah, even if somebody knows Japanese, that doesn't automatically mean he/she has zero experience with translated titles and can't provide any constructive criticism. That aside, Interested Translator mentioned one more thing that can be a hassle while translating VNs - voices. Length of unvoiced lines sometimes is an issue too - the text must fit into the textbox after all - but generally you have a much bigger margin there. When the line is voiced though, it shouldn't be much shorter/longer than the spoken dialogue. And that can be quite a pain. Another issue are cases when characters refer to somebody using a typically Japanese expression, like "senpai" for example. In proper translation, those obviously shouldn't be left as is. But on the West, addressing an older student as "senior" would be quite unnatural. We just use names here. But that in turn, is inconsistent with the voiced line - we hear "senpai" but the text shows character's name instead (and you don't need to know Japanese to catch that). Maybe it's just me, but I find that quite annoying. That's one more reason why I prefer when honorifics and some Japanese expressions are left intact.

I don't think I should be writing anything in this topic, because I don't like translations in general. Even their inherent, unavoidable flaws bother me to some extent (untranslatable details, jokes, cultural differences, all that stuff). It's not limited to VNs, I always prefer the original work, as long as can read it of course. Well, that's why I learned Japanese to begin with. But well, I prefer the translations to be as faithful as possible. Note that "faithful" does not mean "literal". Often quite the contrary - overly literal translation can actually twist the original meaning - ENG and JP differ a lot after all. As long as the translation conveys the same information and emotions, it can use completely different words and expressions if necessary. Well, basically what Decay said. That aside, this thread seems like a good place to talk about the usage of honorifics, brought up by OriginalRen in MoeNovel topic (https://forums.fuwanovel.net/index.php?/topic/7346-moenovel-announcing-something-monday-1711/?p=191342), so I'll continue the discussion here. Including honorifics in the TL can seem like an "otaku translator/editor mindset", but it's not that simple. Sometimes they can be omitted or replaced easily, without affecting anything too much. However, that isn't always the case. Using KonoSora as an example, there are quite a few occasions where honorifics are vital for characters' interactions and jokes. Omitting them would require writing multiple conversations from scratch (what MoeNovel did, which resulted in killed jokes and/or nonsensical dialogue most of the time). When it comes to Kotori alone, there are 2 or 3 conversations centered on Aoi triying to convince her to start addressing him without the "-kun" honorific and there were a few dialogues where Aoi complains about it, Kotori drops it accidentally (and Aoi comments on that), etc.. Good luck with rewriting all that into English without destroying jokes and characters' interactions. Is it doable? Probably. But it would require a more liberal translation - and doing that right requires quite a lot of skill and extra work. Is it worth the effort? In my opinion - no. Not in this case anyway. And that was the main reason why I decided to keep honorifics in KonoSora. It's just easier to do it that way. The majority of potential readers know them anyway, so it's not a huge issue. My preference to stay faithful to the original text comes after those. EDIT: by the way, I forgot to mention that MoeNovel's "TL" also uses some honorifics (there's An-chan, Ma-bou doesn't sound very English either), so I only make it consistent. I also try to keep references to Japanese pop culture, but again, keeping it understandable for the reader is the priority. One Piece is popular, so there's no harm in leaving a reference to a character from this franchise. 2chan slang however, isn't known at all, so it can't be included. Fortunately, it's possible to convert it into fitting internet slang equivalents to keep the references understandable, but still reasonably faithful. And a minor reference to a running gag from Ikkyu-san can be skipped without affecting anything at all (this anime was apparently very popular in Asia, but on the West? Did anyone hear about it?). The story is set in Japan and it's a translation, not a localization. Characters will be eating Japanese food, watching Japanese TV shows etc.. There's no need to change everything, just the important and/or the most confusing stuff.

^ Errr, you kinda missed the part that actually was fixed there. Aoi did NOT say he was dating Kotori. His friends bombarded him with questions as soon as he showed up at school (they were confirming the rumors). That translation error made it seem like Aoi ran into the classroom and declared that he is dating Kotori or something ("you just said"), which is out-of-character and completely messes up the entire conversation later on. As for honorifics and such, let's move the further discussion to that thread: https://forums.fuwanovel.net/index.php?/topic/7375-what-do-you-look-for-in-a-translation-project/

@Nosebleed and Rooke Nope. Editing cannot fix something that was utterly butchered by incompetent translators. We're talking about stuff like: 1) Asa put on an upset face, pretending to cry. She was fun to talk to, reacting honestly to what I said. That's a contradiction, you'd have to rewrite it completely to turn it into something sensible. And that could damage the already mistranslated script even further. 2) Akari: Wow, I'm impressed. What else should I expect from a club that has motivation comparing to a club that doesn't. Ageha: Thanks to you Ms. Kumoi. Really, thanks so much! Akari: Here is a club with motivation, however a little strange I thought. Akari is basically babbling some nonsense in the last line. What can be edited there? You could try to rewrite it into something more sensible, but it would still miss the original meaning completely. Don't get me wrong - proper editing (not just proof-reading) is absolutely vital for making good translations. But, when the translation is awfully inaccurate and messy, it's simply unsalvageable. Editing garbage is a waste of time.

@Original Ren Do you even know what we are talking about here? MoeNovel's translation is unreadable, and by "unreadable" I mean - several lines make little to no sense, are completely out of context, contradict each other, mix up which character is speaking, etc. etc., up to the pure gibberish that is especially frequent during aviation/aerodynamics infodumps (and there are plenty of those). Again - it's not about removed lines. Absolutely nothing was removed from infodumps, and during the entire common route and Kotori's route I bumped merely into 4-5 errors caused by missing lines - but that wasn't censorship. Their poor excuse of a translator just couldn't handle the line length properly, so he split one line in two (to fit it into the textbox) and skipped another line entirely. So no, it's not about grammar mistakes, word errors or translation being slightly different from the original. It's about stuff making absolutely no sense whatsoever on a regular basis. It's just a charage and it doesn't have a complex plot, so you will roughly understand what is going on most of the time... but, is this really your idea of an acceptable translation? And yeah, I was going to link my examples, but Decay ninja'd me. Of course, I'm not a native English speaker and I'm learning Japanese entirely through self-study to boot, so I definitely have no right to correct or edit anything. But hey, I provided the original JP text - feel free to show those examples to someone perfectly fluent in Japanese and then to a native English speaker with superb writing skills if you want. They will explain you which version is an utter garbage and why.

Oh, so they won't butcher anything new? That's good to hear. Will they really slap that trainwreck of a translation on Steam? I guess there are bound to be some illiterate idiots among gamers... but why would they read something like this to begin with? It's not a bad-nukige-without-porn aka Sakura Spirit, it's aimed at people who actually appreciate reading to some extent... Any news on the (unlikely) translation fix would be appreciated though, it could slightly decrease the amount of work needed to finish the Re-translation patch. That way of thinking is very harmful to the TL-scene/industry. If people gladly swallow whatever BS you throw at them, why should fan-translators/companies even bother? Making a poorly written guesslation is much easier, faster and cheaper than making an actual translation after all (not to even mention a good one). Besides, even if MoeNovel released an uncensored version, with the current translation level it would remain an unreadable crap all the same. It doesn't matter whether a sexual joke is removed or completely lost in poor translation, the effect is the same - it's not funny. Also, translating and re-inserting removed H-scenes is 1000x easier and faster than re-translating the entire damn VN (that includes said H-scenes anyway...).

^ Ah, if that's the case, the price is wouldn't be that surprising. You can get second-hand stuff in great condition really cheaply. Though from what I heard, getting new copies for ridiculously low prices is also quite possible, when you are in Japan in person and know where to look for them.

Oh, MoeNovel is planning to announceme something? Whatever it is, I'm not touching that even with a 10 foot pole. Unless they will say they hired a bunch of chimpanzees to do the translation this time - such team definitely will be more competent then the last one...

Any links? The only brand new edition of Clannad (for PC) I found available on Sofmap was for 5,702¥ (link), but I'm not familiar with that shop so maybe I missed something.