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Is romance necessary?


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There's another topic on this forum discussing whether H-scenes are necessary. On that thought, I'm wondering if romance at all is necessary. For example, in Ever17, not all routes result in the protagonist getting into a relationship. Instead, the focus is more on writing a great story.

So, here's the question. When you hear that a particular VN has no romance, do you become less interested, remain neutral, or perhaps even become more intrigued?

Just another random thought. In VNs, if you choose girl A, I think it'd be cool if girl B could perhaps end up with another guy instead. For instance, say in Little Busters, perhaps if you chose Komari, Rin would end up with Kyousuke or something. That just means more happy girls, which I'm always up for. Is this something you guys would be interested in, or would you prefer not? This probably should've been in another topic, but I'm trying to not spam the board :P.

Thanks guys B).

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There's another topic on this forum discussing whether H-scenes are necessary. On that thought, I'm wondering if romance at all is necessary. For example, in Ever17, not all routes result in the protagonist getting into a relationship. Instead, the focus is more on writing a great story.

So, here's the question. When you hear that a particular VN has no romance, do you become less interested, remain neutral, or perhaps even become more intrigued?

Just another random thought. In VNs, if you choose girl A, I think it'd be cool if girl B could perhaps end up with another guy instead. For instance, say in Little Busters, perhaps if you chose Komari, Rin would end up with Kyousuke or something. That just means more happy girls, which I'm always up for. Is this something you guys would be interested in, or would you prefer not? This probably should've been in another topic, but I'm trying to not spam the board :P.

Thanks guys B).

I personally think that romance is necessary, but I also agree with your second point, if you takeone, then the others should be able to end up with someone else

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I don't think romance is something fundamental in a VN. What I do think is fundamental to making a good VN (for me anyway) is strong relations. Whether the protagonist gets into a relationship or not, the attachment to certain characters, things or matters makes it possible for the player to still feel the "heat" depending on certain developments and how well those developments were executed. This can for example be a close friend, osananajimi, villain, refrigerator (lol), death notepad (double lol) or imaginary friend. (derp) Some of these examples may be a bit extreme if you think about what kind of "strong relation" it could be, but they're just examples and VNs can.. be quite extreme yea. XD

Rin ending up with Kyousuke > Kyousuke is not my friend anymore. ww

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I personally remain neutral to romance. My opinion on this is similar that on h-scenes, if it makes sense to be included then it should be included, if it does not have a place then it should not be forced. It will always be present to some extent, because it is necessary to tie characters together and develop attachment with relationships, and among the strongest of those relationships would be romance. And in some cases the story just wouldn't ever be the same without romantic relationships, for example none of Katawa Shoujo past the common route would happen if Hisao didn't date one of the girls. On the flip side though i occasionally get the feel romance is somewhat of a forced thing like h-scenes sometimes are, if you look at modern works its practically obligatory to have some sort of pairing involving the protagonist. Romanceless VNs are few and far between, looking at my list Narcissu 1/2 and Planetarian are the only romanceless ones i've gone through (and all are short VNs).

The ending up with someone else might be a bit weird, although it will probably force more gender balance in the main cast i think the downside is that we get superficial relationships because the focus is on the protagonist and i doubt writers will really go out of their way to write a side love story. Once again i think the simple rule of inclusion applies, if a relationship is not too plausible then it shouldn't be forced. Also it will cause rage among the 'she is my waifu' types because they cannot self-insert as a side character.

And finally i wonder what you were thinking when you suggested Rin x Kyousuke.

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well, I agree with what starfighter say here. I personally prefer that there is a semblance of romance, but it should never be forced. If the focus was never on the romance, then a good story will still be a good story without it. Again my preference is that there is romance as I am really interested to see different kinds of bonds and relations that people make with each other. Of course it does not have to be romance.

With the second thought, if it's possible that the heroine might be with someone else, as is the case for... kimikiss for example, then I say why not? I agree that as long as they're happy, it should happen.

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I don't think romance is something fundamental in a VN. What I do think is fundamental to making a good VN (for me anyway) is strong relations. Whether the protagonist gets into a relationship or not, the attachment to certain characters, things or matters makes it possible for the player to still feel the "heat" depending on certain developments and how well those developments were executed. This can for example be a close friend, osananajimi, villain, refrigerator (lol), death notepad (double lol) or imaginary friend. (derp) Some of these examples may be a bit extreme if you think about what kind of "strong relation" it could be, but they're just examples and VNs can.. be quite extreme yea. XD

Rin ending up with Kyousuke > Kyousuke is not my friend anymore. ww

I gave you a point because you said exactly my thoughts. Strong relations is a must for this kind of games where conversation is the focus. I don't understand why there are relationships in Steins;Gate. It is actually the only game so far I played that when I ended up dating one of the girls I felt deeply disappointed, like I met a dead end and can't finish the real story. In Yume Miru Kusuri it brought me to stop playing because the story is interupted all the time with cringe inducing sex scenes. The characters can't seem to have a behavior without having sex involved :lol: . The themes of the story are serious though, and this "romance" get in the way of it all the time.

To be honest, I wish visual novels tried a bit more to deviate from the dating sim genre.

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My short answer to "is romance necessary?": No.

In almost any kind of fiction, you will find relationships between characters. They might be antagonistic. They might be neutral -- think coworkers, fellow soldiers, neighbors, and so on. They might be categorized as one of the Four Loves, which were defined by C.S. Lewis as follows:

1. Storge (love between family members). See also the TVTropes article on True Companions.

2. Philia (love between friends).

3. Eros (sexual and romantic love).

4. Charity (divine, sacrificial love).

These are topics worth exploring, whether you're making a VN or some other creative work. Likewise, it's perfectly fine to focus on a more general plot. And even if your focus is on romantic relationships, you can write a story or game in which the main character does not get together with their significant other... and it's not a bad ending. Having said all this, if you are looking to make your own story, think about possibilities. Don't confine yourself to writing VNs about teens / young adults in love.

When you hear that a particular VN has no romance, do you become less interested, remain neutral, or perhaps even become more intrigued?

It depends. I have purchased a few visual novels partly because they were not love stories. That includes Sakevisual's first two murder-mystery games (Jisei and Kansei) as well as the DS game 999: Nine Hours, Nine Persons, Nine Doors. Its sequel Virtue's Last Reward is on my "do want" list right now. But at the same time... I do like more than a few romance and harem games. Yes, even though I understand that Sturgeon's Law applies to them just as much as any other genre, style, or format. If I'm gonna venture outside of that category, then I need to make sure that I'll enjoy a non-romance VN's aesthetic, gameplay, writing, and so on.

To be honest, I wish visual novels tried a bit more to deviate from the dating sim genre.

There's been a lot of overlap in terms of romance games, porn games, and VNs. And it's rare to see a dating simulation which lacks quite a bit of narrative and can't be considered a VN. I'm hoping people will make more games to help differentiate these categories.

That said, if you look at games in English with simulation gameplay, you can find some examples that are a bit different. Some of the games in the list have other gameplay elements (such as Koisuru Oukoku and Sakura Wars 5), and others have general plot as well (such as Love and Order and Fading Hearts). Tokimemo Girls Side games are almost all girl x boy pairings, but include best friends endings with girls.

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Yes and no. In a romantic VN I do believe that romance is necessary like it is necessary in a romance novel as well, since that is what the story is about. I don't believe romance is necessary for all VNs or literature though. In my opinion romance seems to be used as a crutch at times to make people care about what will happen to the protagonist and the other characters when the author/developers don't want to work that hard on developing their characters.

I like romance when it is done well and the characters are developed and you know they are right for each other. I hate romance when it isn't done well and when the characters are blank as is their chemistry together.

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Thanks for the reply people! Your answers are all really thoughtful and leaves me something to think about. It seems that most of you are simply interested in seeing strong relationships in general. This, of course, includes things other than romance.

Supah Kawaii Weeaboo, thanks for sharing that link! I'll definitely check it out sometime.

Rin ending up with Kyousuke > Kyousuke is not my friend anymore. ww

Hahaha XD.

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Is Romance Necessary in a VN?

I actually did a post in that H-Scenes topic that alludes to this (HERE).

(Ignore the list of loves there btw; Supah Kawaii Weeaboo's list above is more comprehensive.)

Inscrutable philosophical dilemmas aside though, I note that while there are many people who declare that they play a VN for H-Scenes, you won't find anyone who says they play VNs for relationships (of any sort, romantic or otherwise). I think that's an interesting finding - it suggests to me that romantic love isn't something you can force. Everyone here has placed much emphasis on how important it is that they not be forced - and indeed, most times you end up "feeling" for a character, it's never really something you expected per se. It just so happened that it ended up that way! In common parlance, this, I think, it what it means when people say fate brought us together~

But, see, here's the thing. In VNs, it's never a case of true coincidence that people end up together. All VNs have a story, some form of adversity that needs to be solved. Solving this adversity with someone strengthens your bonds with that person - whether you choose to admit it or not! Those who already like each other find the feeling deepened; and those who don't, well, find they don't have a choice BUT to end up working together - and end up the same way anyway.

tl;dr: Like most others I am not one who plays VNs actively seeking a relationship of any form. However, if there are any VNs that go against the general pattern that I outlined above, I would be very interested to have a look~

EDIT

Just another random thought. In VNs, if you choose girl A, I think it'd be cool if girl B could perhaps end up with another guy instead. For instance, say in Little Busters, perhaps if you chose Komari, Rin would end up with Kyousuke or something. That just means more happy girls, which I'm always up for. Is this something you guys would be interested in, or would you prefer not?
You don't necessarily need to get involved with a relationship to find happiness, you know~ Well jokes aside I agree with everyone else that considering the amount of character development it'd need, I imagine such a scenario difficult to write well. However, if someone proved up for the challenge, I'd love to take a look!
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Routes without romance can be fine if you can expect it, however I would still prefer if it had romance, especially the heroines I like (And I would prefer that in Ever 17 as well, even though it was excellent without it).

Having the other guys date a heroine - NO. Rin x Kyousuke seems nice and actually I wouldn't really mind that because I didn't love Rin, but if Masato (or anyone else) touched my Kud when I would be playing different route, I would have to challenge him to a duel across time and space.

It would made me even more likely to skip other girl's routes if I would have to worry if my favorite heroine ends up with someone else, I already don't play some heroine's routes (only in games with no true route, in LB and Hoshimemo and such I played every route but for example in My girlfriend is the president I will skip Ran route because I don't really like her).

If a heroine is supposed to date someone else, then they should make it multiple protagonist VN and let it be me who dates them all xD

If they however gave some heroines to other guys, it would depend on who it is, if I like her then I would mind, especially if it is loli or loli-like heroine, because in the world of that VN I want to be the only protector of innocent lolis :)

If it was some large breasted non-interesting heroine then I wouldn't mind at all xD

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Thanks for the insight guys!

@harry_kinomoto: Your Rikka avatar is too cute! Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. They gave me plenty to think about.

@steverowland: Well, yeah, I agree XD. Masato is cool, but he's unworthy of any of the girls from Little Busters :P/>/>.

It would made me even more likely to skip other girl's routes if I would have to worry if my favorite heroine ends up with someone else

That's an interesting point! I never considered that.

This whole idea just crossed my mind because I'm thinking of how a VN's story could be more realistic. But before that, whether that's what people even want. Of course, many VNs provide a fantasy scenario where a group of beautiful girls are all in love with you.

I just remember things like the Clannad anime. In that series, sure, Kotomi (was that her name?) was probably in love in Tomoya, but it was never as obviously as it was for the others. Also, when Tomoya chose Nagisa, Kotomi never really looked that upset. I like to think that she wasn't in love with Tomoya. It's more realistic that way, and there's something nice about that.

Thanks again for the responses :).

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Well on the matter of realism, reality is boring - that's why I love visual novels, they are not even close to reality and thus are very entertaining :)

And when I remember back to my young age years (implying I am very old! well close to 22 years of age xD), thanks to the realism I never had the options I have in VNs, such as choosing the girl I want and knowing that in the ending I will be happy with her.

In reality I could have gone for a specific girl's route but got game over before the route even started - she got someone else (im talking about when I was 12-16).

We arrived on summer camp with a friend with expectation to find someone, but half of the girls were already locked with someone else "home". The best outcome I could have hoped on summer camps was to go for a dance with that girl in the final festival (something like they have the summer festival in japan but its more about dancing and doing random stuff in a hall, not outside, and girls don't wear yukatas, just normal clothes or "fancier" clothes, but it is summer camp so you don't wear like suit, hell I got my first suit at like 15 anyway so its not like you take it with you there).

Or actually you meet someone on the last day and find out they live on the other side of country and never meet them again, there were no fancy internets and facebookies and twatters back then! (well we had dial-up home at that time and later ICQ xD).

We maybe exchanged numbers and then I spent all my pocket money on telephone credit.

Anyway the point being, I got maybe 3 good routes that actually were good and entertaining in real life (one of which with pretty bad ED) for all the years and I pretty much stopped dating at like 17 because I was on technical focused school and then technical focused university so there were no girls there.

So I was alone and sad for a long time (jk, I wasted most of the time in mmos and fps not even thinking about girls) and then I found out about visual novels and now I am never alone and I am happier than ever.

VN > reality

:)

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Well on the matter of realism, reality is boring - that's why I love visual novels, they are not even close to reality and thus are very entertaining :)/>/>

And when I remember back to my young age years (implying I am very old! well close to 22 years of age xD), thanks to the realism I never had the options I have in VNs, such as choosing the girl I want and knowing that in the ending I will be happy with her.

In reality I could have gone for a specific girl's route but got game over before the route even started - she got someone else (im talking about when I was 12-16).

We arrived on summer camp with a friend with expectation to find someone, but half of the girls were already locked with someone else "home". The best outcome I could have hoped on summer camps was to go for a dance with that girl in the final festival (something like they have the summer festival in japan but its more about dancing and doing random stuff in a hall, not outside, and girls don't wear yukatas, just normal clothes or "fancier" clothes, but it is summer camp so you don't wear like suit, hell I got my first suit at like 15 anyway so its not like you take it with you there).

Or actually you meet someone on the last day and find out they live on the other side of country and never meet them again, there were no fancy internets and facebookies and twatters back then! (well we had dial-up home at that time and later ICQ xD).

We maybe exchanged numbers and then I spent all my pocket money on telephone credit.

Anyway the point being, I got maybe 3 good routes that actually were good and entertaining in real life (one of which with pretty bad ED) for all the years and I pretty much stopped dating at like 17 because I was on technical focused school and then technical focused university so there were no girls there.

So I was alone and sad for a long time (jk, I wasted most of the time in mmos and fps not even thinking about girls) and then I found out about visual novels and now I am never alone and I am happier than ever.

VN > reality

:)/>/>

Maybe it's not a good idea to see every girl as a "route" or "heroine" at all. In a VN, there are girls that don't have a route while you may like them even more than the others. Or the protagonist may have a crush that he never even gets, which may or may not be considered a route. Either way that route would have to be "bad", or perhaps "tragic" or even a "good" ending but he still doesn't get her, or not be a route at all but lead to some other route instead.

The way you could see it is that those girls you've been encountering until now have mostly been support characters, of which there never was an available route in the first place from your position as "the protagonist", but help lead you to the true route in the future.

/VNterms XD

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In a VN, there are girls that don't have a route while you may like them even more than the others.

That's where fandiscs and fanfiction comes to play! I want Kuu route from My Girlfriend Is The President but I will have to wait till I can read Japanese or the fandisc is TLed xD

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I don't think romance is an ABSOLUTE necessity in VNs.. Rather it is much about preference rather than necessity..

Like any other literary formats, VNs can be written with in any genre, though romance seems to be the most common of all, because maybe, it is the one that sells..

The developers may not been able to develop non-romantic VNs because they did not want to gamble on different genres..

Though personally, I prefer VNs with a good plot and concept which provides a good environment for the development of the romance..

Also, since I am a hopelessly romantic person, I just love reading romance VNs, and I shall agree with steverowland that VN is much greater than real life ^^

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I don't think romance is an ABSOLUTE necessity in VNs.. Rather it is much about preference rather than necessity..

Like any other literary formats, VNs can be written with in any genre, though romance seems to be the most common of all, because maybe, it is the one that sells..

The developers may not been able to develop non-romantic VNs because they did not want to gamble on different genres..

Though personally, I prefer VNs with a good plot and concept which provides a good environment for the development of the romance..

Also, since I am a hopelessly romantic person, I just love reading romance VNs, and I shall agree with steverowland that VN is much greater than real life ^^

Yeah, it's understandable for developers to choose the safe route. We're all trying to make a living, after all. That's why I enjoy free pursuits like Narcissu, where the creator wants to experiment with something different.

It's all good; I like romance, too :).

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Yeah, it's understandable for developers to choose the safe route. We're all trying to make a living, after all. That's why I enjoy free pursuits like Narcissu, where the creator wants to experiment with something different.

It's all good; I like romance, too :)/>.

I've downloaded Narcissu just yesterday, but I might not be able to start playing it in a while.. My VNs are kinda piling up.. and I am still currently downloading Hoshimemo as of the moment.. The download was taking a damn long time and it is still at 64%..

Though it is understandable, I know the VN community would appreciate someone trying to make a non-romantic VN that would be equally as good as it's romance-oriented predecessors.. ^^

And I as well would be willing to have the experience of playing through it.. Kinda exciting ^^

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Haven't read all the responses yet, so this is just my answer to the first post :)

For me, romance isn't necessary at all. I just like a good story, particularly of the horror/mystery variety.

However, when it IS a romance story, I like to have H-scenes there (this kind of ties into the 'are H scenes necessary' post!). Just 'cos I get kind of bored if it's just a romance with no erm.. payoff XD

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alden_0023, just drop every other game you're playing and get on some Narcissu! Yeah, I kind of love that game B). I keep hearing Hoshimemo mentioned here. Guess it's a game many folks recommend?

There are a few non-romance focused VNs out there already, I suppose. In Narcissu Side2nd, the friendship between Himeko and Yuka played a big part, and I loved their relationship more than most romantic plots in other VNs.

meru, haha, fair enough XD. If you like horror and mystery, 999 is for you! Man, I loved that so much B).

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I keep hearing Hoshimemo mentioned here. Guess it's a game many folks recommend?

Yeah actually it is something I discovered by browsing randomly myself, didn't see any article about it on English sites before that like list of VNs you have to play and such, those usually had like LB, clannad, Fate/stay night, steins gate and such. I guess its not as popular in west as those others, but when I asked a friend in Japan, she said that the hype for FAVORITE (company who made it) is really high in there almost like for was for LB.

I would just love the fandisc translated, this with LB is my FAVORITE vn :) (pun intended)

Well people even have cars with hoshimemo there xD

ABwwW.jpg

1266506793.jpg

edit: might as well add cars with Iroseka, the second game, currently about 85% TL done, can't wait (its in upcoming on fuwan)

actually this one has hoshimemo too, holdin mare doll, I want that doll :) even better I want mare IRL xD

1108.jpg

1098.jpg

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alden_0023, just drop every other game you're playing and get on some Narcissu! Yeah, I kind of love that game B)/>. I keep hearing Hoshimemo mentioned here. Guess it's a game many folks recommend?

There are a few non-romance focused VNs out there already, I suppose. In Narcissu Side2nd, the friendship between Himeko and Yuka played a big part, and I loved their relationship more than most romantic plots in other VNs.

I'll get to it eventually ^^.. I just want to download many interesting VNs before the Christmas vacation starts.. So during vacation time I'll just play through them ^^.. I still have about 6 uncleared VNs, including Little Busters, Hoshimemo, and Sharin no Kuni, Himawaru no Shoujo..

Though I am saying this, I already started Hoshimemo, and it was awesome!.. I was hooked right from the get go ^^.. Though I can't say much, it is definitely worth a try, and I'm sure others would agree with me..

I have seen very little of Narcissu, but I think it would be quite good.. Its storyline seems fairly unique, is it not?.. Oh well, I'll learn about it as soon as I play though it ^^..

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I pretty much stopped dating at like 17 because I was on technical focused school and then technical focused university so there were no girls there.

So I was alone and sad for a long time (jk, I wasted most of the time in mmos and fps not even thinking about girls) and then I found out about visual novels and now I am never alone and I am happier than ever.

VN > reality

Dude, I'm 17 and haven't even started dating. Visual novel seems to be the only salvation...

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