Jump to content

Da Capo III Fan Translation at 34%!


Guest

Recommended Posts

hey sorry my internet has been dead in the past week, been using iPhone to get by (very slow net speeds)

the technician should be here this week to fix our net, once it's fixed i should be able to resume translation

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I would tend to agree that if Mangagamer has interest in this title (which it does), then Aaeru should consider backing off. Like it or not, Circus has chosen Mangagamer as their overseas distributor. Unless permission is obtained from Circus to do a fan translation, their choice should be respected.

There's so many great VNs out there that have almost 0 chance of being translated. There's really no need to "compete" with Mangagamer. On top of that, fan translators competing with licensed translators tends to anger the original developers, who then become less willing to work with the licensed translators. All that does is damage the likelihood of seeing more titles from that developer localized.

Now if Circus completely refused to allow any translations of its works at all, that would be a different matter. I don't have much respect for intellectual property hoarding.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

START RANT

um no. Im seriously getting tired of people saying she should back off. If Aaeru wants to spend her time translating this, then so be it. All the Hate..

Look. people hate me already

https://twitter.com/TakuyaFM/status/267826078029078528

this is the very attitude that disgusts me.

that fan translation is not justified. we need to take a step back from commercial expansion.

it's tyranny of the mind. treading all over people's freedom of expression for fear of infringing these de jure monopolies. (and they sell monopoly like its property now. wow.)

Fan translators. DO NOT apologize for your own free speech. Do not apologize for making the world a better place.

Seriously, its her prerogative if she chooses to do this. Enough with the complaints already. You want to wait for MangaGamer, thats your choice. She obviously dont mind doing it.

Move on already! If your against it, get over it! Its not going to change unless she chooses it to. We here at Fuwanovel support Aaeru 100%.

END RANT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would tend to agree that if Mangagamer has interest in this title (which it does), then Aaeru should consider backing off. Like it or not, Circus has chosen Mangagamer as their overseas distributor. Unless permission is obtained from Circus to do a fan translation, their choice should be respected.

There's so many great VNs out there that have almost 0 chance of being translated. There's really no need to "compete" with Mangagamer. On top of that, fan translators competing with licensed translators tends to anger the original developers, who then become less willing to work with the licensed translators. All that does is damage the likelihood of seeing more titles from that developer localized.

Now if Circus completely refused to allow any translations of its works at all, that would be a different matter. I don't have much respect for intellectual property hoarding.

Sanahtlig, this is my copy. I bought it. I will make improvements to my copy if I want. I will even share those improvements to others if I want. These are natural rights, or if you dare, 'property rights'.

I am a fan of Circus too. But I did not give up my liberty to improve on published pieces of information in order to promote the progress of learning (see US Constitution copyright clause or statute of anne 1710). If they have a problem with competition, please use their little government grant monopolies and CRUSH me- if they are immoral enough to do so. These are anti-competitive practices.

Competition brings low costs, drives innovation, which results in high production, costs of services go down, and everyone is richer (including the translators at MG). Anti-competition brings stagnation, high costs, and kills entrepreneurship. Everyone loses becauses the old way of doing things is more unproductive, and those higher marginal costs are passed down onto the consumer. Everyone is worse off.

The third problem is that you are seeing it as a zero-sum game. Information, is the opposite of physical things. The more you spread it the more powerful it becomes. John Perry Barlow founder of EFF.org said, "Economically when you spread information you create demand for it." See this page i wrote a while ago.

Also see this JK Rowling scenario.

Fans should focus on what they do best, convert non-fans into new fans. A bigger audience is everything we need right now in an ultra-niche product like the visual novel. The only way you will see an increased number of localizations, is if you expand the audience.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sanahtlig, this is my copy. I bought it. I will make improvements to my copy if I want. I will even share those improvements to others if I want. These are natural rights, or if you dare, 'property rights'.

What you bought is actually a limited-use license, which does not include the right to modify the game. But that's outside the scope of my argument. I'm more concerned with "creating the most good" than technicalities.

I am a fan of Circus too. But I did not give up my liberty to improve on published pieces of information in order to promote the progress of learning (see US Constitution copyright clause or statute of anne 1710). If they have a problem with competition, please use their little government grant monopolies and CRUSH me- if they are immoral enough to do so. These are anti-competitive practices.

Competition brings low costs, drives innovation, which results in high production, costs of services go down, and everyone is richer (including the translators at MG). Anti-competition brings stagnation, high costs, and kills entrepreneurship. Everyone loses becauses the old way of doing things is more unproductive, and those higher marginal costs are passed down onto the consumer. Everyone is worse off.

This argument only applies if saturation has been reached--if all the worthwhile titles are already being translated. This may be the case in the anime market, but it isn't true in the VN market. Think about it. Group A and group B want to independently translate a VN. They have 10,000 VNs to choose from. Obviously more VNs get translated if they work on different VNs. Working on the same VN independently would mean only 1 VN gets translated. It's unlikely competition in this instance is to the readers' benefit. VN fan translators generally try to avoid competing with each other for this very reason, even though there is no "establishment" preventing them from doing so.

Fans should focus on what they do best, convert non-fans into new fans. A bigger audience is everything we need right now in an ultra-niche product like the visual novel. The only way you will see an increased number of localizations, is if you expand the audience.

I agree with your stated intent, but I don't see how competing with localization groups expands the audience when there's so many untranslated VNs to choose from.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What you bought is actually a limited-use license, which does not include the right to modify the game. But that's outside the scope of my argument. I'm more concerned with "creating the most good" than technicalities.

Do not let these people tell you that what you have bought is not your property and that the author still gets to exercise some control over your property. They are merely thieves in sheep's clothing.

When I have bought a DVD, the DVD is mine. There can be no further question regarding whose DVD it is nor can there be question about the content inside the DVD and whom it belongs to. If the author tries to manipulate my copy of my DVD without my permission, I have the natural right to use sufficient force to thwart his attempt. I don't care if he's the author. That's MY copy. And so it is even with copies of information. You own the copies of information for which you have purchased and you own them completely.

But Intellectual 'property' law, tries to rewrite real property rights. It wants to say that part of your DVD isn't yours. It is the author's. In other words, they can now come into your house, lock you up in a cell, take your property away if you dare perform certain actions to your own property. That is why it is not piracy that is theft, but copyright that steals from the rightful owners of his property. Anyone who tries to rewrite property law is a thief. A burglar. A criminal. It matters not what disguise they use to hide their actions, be it starving artist or struggling artist. A thief is a thief.

When you take these axioms to their logical conclusion, you can either have real property rights, or you can ask your State to lawlessly rewrite them so that u can plunder your customers. 1st or 2nd. There is no in-between.

Further reading: http://falkvinge.net/2013/02/10/why-do-copyright-monopolists-think-they-can-just-steal-somebody-elses-work/

http://falkvinge.net/2013/02/13/five-basic-misconceptions-about-the-copyright-monopoly-and-sharing-of-culture/

http://sharingisliberty.wordpress.com/2013/02/03/if-i-print-1000-books-all-1000-books-are-mine-if-i-sell-one-book-i-have-999-left/

This argument only applies if saturation has been reached--if all the worthwhile titles are already being translated. This may be the case in the anime market, but it isn't true in the VN market. Think about it. Group A and group B want to independently translate a VN. They have 10,000 VNs to choose from. Obviously more VNs get translated if they work on different VNs. Working on the same VN independently would mean only 1 VN gets translated. It's unlikely competition in this instance is to the readers' benefit. VN fan translators generally try to avoid competing with each other for this very reason, even though there is no "establishment" preventing them from doing so.

If I translate D.C.III, and someone translates D.C.III at the same time, I am motivated to translate faster, translate better, be the better product. If group B (the later project) brings the VN out faster than group A (the earlier project) does, then the public gets to read it earlier. We have more translations, more quickly, and at better quality. Everyone wins.

Secondly I Want to translate D.C.III. To say that I should go translate something else because i am not maximizing your ability to read more VNs is not a moral highground argument. I live for myself. Not for you. Nor for the public.

Thirdly, my translation is in creative commons attribution. https://fuwanovel.net/novels/61

MG can take my work without permission, and work off it if they so see fit. They can reappropriate it for their product. No progress is ever lost.

I agree with your stated intent, but I don't see how competing with localization groups expands the audience when there's so many untranslated VNs to choose from.

I consider myself to be group B in my above example. The problem with your argument is that the group A in my example still doesn't even exist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do not let these people tell you that what you have bought is not your property and that the author still gets to exercise some control over your property. They are merely thieves in sheep's clothing.

When I have bought a DVD, the DVD is mine. There can be no further question regarding whose DVD it is nor can there be question about the content inside the DVD and whom it belongs to. If the author tries to manipulate my copy of my DVD without my permission, I have the natural right to use sufficient force to thwart his attempt. I don't care if he's the author. That's MY copy. And so it is even with copies of information. You own the copies of information for which you have purchased and you own them completely.

But Intellectual 'property' law, tries to rewrite real property rights. It wants to say that part of your DVD isn't yours. It is the author's. In other words, they can now come into your house, lock you up in a cell, take your property away if you dare perform certain actions to your own property. That is why it is not piracy that is theft, but copyright that steals from the rightful owners of his property. Anyone who tries to rewrite property law is a thief. A burglar. A criminal. It matters not what disguise they use to hide their actions, be it starving artist or struggling artist. A thief is a thief.

When you take these axioms to their logical conclusion, you can either have real property rights, or you can ask your State to lawlessly rewrite them so that u can plunder your customers. 1st or 2nd. There is no in-between.

Further reading: http://falkvinge.net/2013/02/10/why-do-copyright-monopolists-think-they-can-just-steal-somebody-elses-work/

http://falkvinge.net/2013/02/13/five-basic-misconceptions-about-the-copyright-monopoly-and-sharing-of-culture/

http://sharingisliberty.wordpress.com/2013/02/03/if-i-print-1000-books-all-1000-books-are-mine-if-i-sell-one-book-i-have-999-left/

I should reiterate that the debate over intellectual property is outside the scope of my original argument. However, your view of property is very black and white. What about rentals (e.g., a rented DVD)? Services (e.g., antivirus software)? You don't "own" either of these, and you're not free to do with them as you wish. A rental has to be returned (or in some cases, destroyed). Paid antivirus software requires a subscription. These don't neatly fall into the black and white property categories that you've described. There's also entire industries that would collapse without intellectual property protection, such as drug development (I'm somewhat skeptical that a Kickstarter paradigm would be able to fund research and development of the next anti-cancer drug). And what about unlawfully accessed information (e.g., identity theft)? Don't you have a right to your own personal information (i.e., a right to privacy)? If so, do you have the right to sell it (e.g., data collection for marketing, which funds the Internet as we know it)? If so, do you have the right to sell it for specific uses only (e.g., it can be used for marketing, but not shared with the government in order to spy on you)? There's so many shades of grey that an absolutist argument on property rights ignores or forbids.

If I translate D.C.III, and someone translates D.C.III at the same time, I am motivated to translate faster, translate better, be the better product. If group B (the later project) brings the VN out faster than group A (the earlier project) does, then the public gets to read it earlier. We have more translations, more quickly, and at better quality. Everyone wins.

Competition is inherently wasteful. But yes, you get the best one of two VN translations. The other translation effort is essentially "wasted". Competition can be good or bad; it depends on context as I explained before.

Secondly I Want to translate D.C.III. To say that I should go translate something else because i am not maximizing your ability to read more VNs is not a moral highground argument. I live for myself. Not for you. Nor for the public.

I actually never claimed the moral high ground (i.e., claiming that what you're doing is objectively and irrefutably wrong). I specifically stated this in an earlier post in this thread, but that post mysteriously disappeared. You are indeed free to do as you wish so long as no one takes you to court. But it seemed to me like your decision to translate Da Capo 3 (and host Fuwanovel) was fundamentally based on promoting VNs in the best and most efficient way possible, not simply doing it because you could. Forgive me if I was mistaken. (Also, it's rather uncalled for to misrepresent my argument in order to criticize my motives. That's in rather poor taste.)

Against the "I'm doing it because I want to" argument, I pose this question. I'm sitting in a small room with 10 other people at work. I start humming, which irritates some of the others in the room. 5 of them ask me to stop. 3 don't care. 1 asks me to continue. Should I keep humming? Humming is not illegal. It's not even wrong. But I'll probably stop because I want to be courteous to those around me. In some ways, this analogy is similar to the current situation with Da capo 3. Are you morally obligated to cease your translation if Circus / Mangagamer were to ask you to stop? Maybe not. Would it be rather rude to not comply? I think so. Would continuing to hum / translate cause unnecessary strife within the office / VN community? I think so.

Thirdly, my translation is in creative commons attribution. https://fuwanovel.net/novels/61

MG can take my work without permission, and work off it if they so see fit. They can reappropriate it for their product. No progress is ever lost.

I consider myself to be group B in my above example. The problem with your argument is that the group A in my example still doesn't even exist.

I could argue this point further, but you rejected the idea that fan translation should seek to maximize the number of translated VNs (which promotes the spread of VNs and creates new fans). As that was the foundation of the argument you're responding to here, that essentially kills this line of discussion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Against the "I'm doing it because I want to" argument, I pose this question. I'm sitting in a small room with 10 other people at work. I start humming, which irritates some of the others in the room. 5 of them ask me to stop. 3 don't care. 1 asks me to continue. Should I keep humming? Humming is not illegal. It's not even wrong. But I'll probably stop because I want to be courteous to those around me. In some ways, this analogy is similar to the current situation with Da capo 3. Are you morally obligated to cease your translation if Circus / Mangagamer were to ask you to stop? Maybe not. Would it be rather rude to not comply? I think so. Would continuing to hum / translate cause unnecessary strife within the office / VN community? I think so.

ummm ok. Apparently you want to keep talking about this. It is Aaeru's decision if she wants to keep translating DCIII. Im curious why you seem to want to continue to question her decision. Its just that, HER DECISION.

Its really nice that you seem to want to contribute to the forums, but I cant help but think there are better ways to do it. Nothing you say is going to deter Aaeru from continuing to translate DCIII.

sanahtlig, You seem really intelligent and i dont want to argue with you about this. Im just saying, let it go. :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Obviously it would be rather arrogant of me to think I alone could change Aaeru's mind. I simply wanted to pose a more nuanced argument from the perspective of someone that shares many of Fuwanovel's stated ideals. It's up to the community here (and Aaeru) if you want to continue to discuss my points. If no one responds to my posts, then I'll have nothing more to say. However, I get the impression that Aaeru actually enjoys such debate; if she didn't, she wouldn't go posting her ideals all over the Internet (and she wouldn't have bothered responding to me).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I should reiterate that the debate over intellectual property is outside the scope of my original argument. However, your view of property is very black and white. What about rentals (e.g., a rented DVD)? Services (e.g., antivirus software)? You don't "own" either of these, and you're not free to do with them as you wish. A rental has to be returned (or in some cases, destroyed). Paid antivirus software requires a subscription. These don't neatly fall into the black and white property categories that you've described. There's also entire industries that would collapse without intellectual property protection, such as drug development (I'm somewhat skeptical that a Kickstarter paradigm would be able to fund research and development of the next anti-cancer drug). And what about unlawfully accessed information (e.g., identity theft)? Don't you have a right to your own personal information (i.e., a right to privacy)? If so, do you have the right to sell it (e.g., data collection for marketing, which funds the Internet as we know it)? If so, do you have the right to sell it for specific uses only (e.g., it can be used for marketing, but not shared with the government in order to spy on you)? There's so many shades of grey that an absolutist argument on property rights ignores or forbids.

Competition is inherently wasteful. But yes, you get the best one of two VN translations. The other translation effort is essentially "wasted". Competition can be good or bad; it depends on context as I explained before.

I actually never claimed the moral high ground (i.e., claiming that what you're doing is objectively and irrefutably wrong). I specifically stated this in an earlier post in this thread, but that post mysteriously disappeared. You are indeed free to do as you wish so long as no one takes you to court. But it seemed to me like your decision to translate Da Capo 3 (and host Fuwanovel) was fundamentally based on promoting VNs in the best and most efficient way possible, not simply doing it because you could. Forgive me if I was mistaken. (Also, it's rather uncalled for to misrepresent my argument in order to criticize my motives. That's in rather poor taste.)

Against the "I'm doing it because I want to" argument, I pose this question. I'm sitting in a small room with 10 other people at work. I start humming, which irritates some of the others in the room. 5 of them ask me to stop. 3 don't care. 1 asks me to continue. Should I keep humming? Humming is not illegal. It's not even wrong. But I'll probably stop because I want to be courteous to those around me. In some ways, this analogy is similar to the current situation with Da capo 3. Are you morally obligated to cease your translation if Circus / Mangagamer were to ask you to stop? Maybe not. Would it be rather rude to not comply? I think so. Would continuing to hum / translate cause unnecessary strife within the office / VN community? I think so.

I could argue this point further, but you rejected the idea that fan translation should seek to maximize the number of translated VNs (which promotes the spread of VNs and creates new fans). As that was the foundation of the argument you're responding to here, that essentially kills this line of discussion.

Yes it is. You said if MG wants me to back off, I should back off. You said if you are told to stop humming, I should stop humming. That if I am asked to stop, I am 'rude' for not stopping. You ARE taking moral highground. And you are only saying it because you have a weak understanding of copyright as a State grant of monopoly to artists as a reward for the publishing of their arts in hope of encouraging the public good which is to increase the public domain. The ultimate goal is to promote the progress of learning: which means more copies, for more ppl, at lesser cost. To say that I should back off bcuz I am infringing on someone's coercive monopoly therefore I am immoral? That doesn't make sense. It is demonstrating a misunderstanding of copyright.

US House Republicans: Copyright Law Destroys Markets; It’s Time For Real Reform

9ubk8q3.png

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20121116/16481921080/house-republicans-copyright-law-destroys-markets-its-time-real-reform.shtml

also see http://open-spaces.com/article-v2n1-loren.php/

And I don't understand this idea, that you can lecture me about how I should use my free time because I am not maximizing the rate of return in your opinion. In my opinion I am maximizing my rate of return. The 2nd point is I don't care if you don't think I am not maximizing returns. It is the entrepreneur's job to find a way to profit in a digital world where ppl are willing to provide what they are selling for free. If they cannot compete with ppl who can do it for free, then they are outcompeted. Full stop. It is not the business of the government to hold back every single one of these ppl who are willing to do it for free, JUST so that the uninnovative businessman can continue to get his dough. We ask that the uninnovative businessman compete harder, innovate, or get out and go find a dayjob. This is how you achieve economic efficiency.

“The goal of economic efficiency is not that of making monopolists as rich as possible, in fact: it is almost the opposite. The goal of economic efficiency is that of making us all as well off as possible.” - Boldrin and Levine

Monopoly is the opposite of the market process. It asks that we all suffer another 2 years wait for D.C.III by MG, for Ef A latter tales (oops, already translated 2 years ago), for Eden, for Supipara, for Demonbane, for Hanachirasu. For Steins;Gate. It makes all of us worse off, as it has been doing to us ever since 2009 when TLWiki lost the intellectual debate, and they continue to lose to this day. (and 2 years is conservative. It's actually 2 to infinity)

And the problem with your argument is that no1 else is translating D.C.III okay? MG is not currently translating it. It was never even announced officially. They said one time they have their eyes on it at an anime con in 2010. After that there were a few passing-mentions of it. But no work has ever commenced.

Fan translators naturally avoid each other for fear of overlapping work in the case they work on something simultaneously. The problem is.... where is this overlapping work for DC3?

As for property rights, scroll right down to the bottom of this page until you reach 'Questioning Intellectual Property' https://fuwanovel.net/faq/3

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah sanahtlig you remind me of a person I know that would start arguments just for the sake of arguing and getting a kick out of it...

MangaGamer officially has the DC III project on suspension with no plans to resume anytime soon. Infact there hasn't been ANY word of it since 2011 (refer to http://vntls.tindabox.net/project/da-capo-iii/). It is now a year and 7 months later and you're suggesting Aaeru should step down and move aside for an official translator who isn't even translating the VN in question? You're a laugh and a half. Perhaps you should consider doing a bit of research and getting your facts straight before you start posting counterproductive opinions and expanding upon them, just to make yourself look like a fool. If you don't support a fanmade translation, don't use it. It's that simple. Don't come in here telling the translator to back off because you selfishly believe that your opinion is correct and that everyone should follow it. The translator wants to finish the project, and us supporters want to see it finished too. If you argue that the fan translation will hurt MangaGamer, then they have no one to blame but themselves since this project wouldn't even be going if not for their incompetence.

On a different note I'd like to commend Aaeru for the hard work and determination she has put in thus far. Keep up the good work and ignore the haters! :)/>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The other issue is that you are assuming there is one and only one possible way to translate something, and that that is the one version the consumer must take.

If MG does decide to translate it, it will very likely be different from the translation by Aaeru, even ignoring simple changes such as EN-UK vs EN-US spelling. There's also the literal vs non-literal/localisation debate but let's not open another can of worms here.

This gives the consumer choice, which is important.

I could argue this point further' date=' but you rejected the idea that fan translation should seek to maximize the number of translated VNs (which promotes the spread of VNs and creates new fans). [/quote']There is a difference between maximising the number of translated VNs, and maximising the number of translations.

If there is one you have in mind then here is where you should voice your opinion. Or take the next step' date= learn some Japanese if you need to, and translate what you want translated; if you've been reading fan translations, done by those who spend the time and effort to do so, then you should consider giving back to the community. Contribution is what grows the community, not complaints and adherence to the "old culture" of monopolies.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

MangaGamer officially has the DC III project on suspension with no plans to resume anytime soon.

You're a laugh and a half. Perhaps you should consider doing a bit of research and getting your facts straight before you start posting counterproductive opinions and expanding upon them, just to make yourself look like a fool. If you don't support a fanmade translation, don't use it. It's that simple. Don't come in here telling the translator to back off because you selfishly believe that your opinion is correct and that everyone should follow it.

This fact only makes this debate irrelevant to the case of DC III, that does not make his arguments invalid. Since it's pretty clear now that they're arguing just for the sake of arguing, I don't see why you would call him a fool and say outright he is not supporting on fanmade translation. There was NEVER mentioned anywhere that he rejected fan translation and I don't see how his opinions are "counterproductive". He is stating something very simple: "competition over a VN translation only decreases the number of translated VNs" and I don't see how it is false in any way. Then of course it might not be relevant in this case, because the translator do whatever he wants to do.

This gives the consumer choice, which is important.

When there are so few actually translated VNs, it is debatable that giving choice is more important than giving more translated VNs. Just ask people what they would want, I think you know what the answer would be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This fact only makes this debate irrelevant to the case of DC III, that does not make his arguments invalid. Since it's pretty clear now that they're arguing just for the sake of arguing, I don't see why you would call him a fool and say outright he is not supporting on fanmade translation. There was NEVER mentioned anywhere that he rejected fan translation and I don't see how his opinions are "counterproductive". He is stating something very simple: "competition over a VN translation only decreases the number of translated VNs" and I don't see how it is false in any way. Then of course it might not be relevant in this case, because the translator do whatever he wants to do.

I don't really agree with calling him a fool either.

Down: I thought over it for a bit more.

The key to not overlap work is to:

1) Work together. Fan translators already do this. They don't start their own translation when another group is at 50%. They join the 50%.

2) Release your work in a creative commons attribution license. MG and JAST can take your work and create commercial products from it. It is win-win. It means my D.C.III scripts are not 'wasted'. They can be freely used by MG to do their localization when the time comes. That is why there is no overlap.

He is stating something very simple: "competition over a VN translation only decreases the number of translated VNs" and I don't see how it is false in any way.

The second point is that stating the above is stating the obvious. For the record, there has never been a single simultaneous translation of a VN by 2 groups since the 'beginning'. (i.e. ppl who put 2 yrs of their free time on the wager is very careful about how they spend it). At least none such thing occurred until Air and Mahoyo and only because those 2 are very special examples.

The other problem with the argument about overlapping work is that we are assuming that Fan TLs exists to serve the spreading of VNs. That could not be more untrue. That is a very new idea that I started when I launched this place. When I first arrived at the scene, almost all fan TLs did it for the honour of being able to claim it (with variations). And even I am no exception.

VNTL is akin to anime fansub. You do it for the reputation capital.

At the end of 2010 I interviewed 39 VN translators at the time, no one I spoke to had this idea that you might want to maximize overall output. People don't care about that. They are usually translating for themselves. It's either e-peen or bcuz they just want to because this particular title is their favourite.

And so you cannot centrally plan people's work to maximize output. In fact the idea is irrelevant, because translators have their own goal in mind. They don't spend 2 years of their free time translating full novels for free without good reason. Saying competition is inherently wasteful is an attempt to imply that there is an alternative. There IS no alternative. Unless you use guns (aka copyright).

It is not through the collective holding back of individual liberty that causes the overall system to move towards VN expansion (and not even if you try to use peer pressure to get your way). Rather it is individuals motivated by their own selfish goals that causes this to happen. Some people do it for the fun of it. Some do it because that one is their favourite title (and nothing u say can steer them from it). Others like insemination do it for the e-peen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

well, I actually wrote a bunch of stuff, then I accidently fucked up the post by pressing back or something and it disappeared. :sadface:

well going to quote everything in the thread then (and spoiler it) and give my thoughts, starting from the first post that started this discussion.

I should note that I was an anime fansubber that basically did every single job (except for encoding, lul a/v technology)

putting quotes in spoiler tags cause that's easier and less of a big text block for everyone.

I would tend to agree that if Mangagamer has interest in this title (which it does), then Aaeru should consider backing off. Like it or not, Circus has chosen Mangagamer as their overseas distributor. Unless permission is obtained from Circus to do a fan translation, their choice should be respected.

There's so many great VNs out there that have almost 0 chance of being translated. There's really no need to "compete" with Mangagamer. On top of that, fan translators competing with licensed translators tends to anger the original developers, who then become less willing to work with the licensed translators. All that does is damage the likelihood of seeing more titles from that developer localized.

Now if Circus completely refused to allow any translations of its works at all, that would be a different matter. I don't have much respect for intellectual property hoarding.

for one who says you're actually competing with mangagamer

also even if you are, and if you're actually translating better and more accurately as an "amateur translator"... verses supposedly professional translators, something seems really really really really wrong.

@the less likely to work with licensing: I'll address this later lul

This argument only applies if saturation has been reached--if all the worthwhile titles are already being translated. This may be the case in the anime market, but it isn't true in the VN market. Think about it. Group A and group B want to independently translate a VN. They have 10,000 VNs to choose from. Obviously more VNs get translated if they work on different VNs. Working on the same VN independently would mean only 1 VN gets translated. It's unlikely competition in this instance is to the readers' benefit. VN fan translators generally try to avoid competing with each other for this very reason, even though there is no "establishment" preventing them from doing so.

I agree with your stated intent, but I don't see how competing with localization groups expands the audience when there's so many untranslated VNs to choose from.

@"creating most good": address this later.

@reader's benefit: you have a very narrow view if you think fan translation is for the reader's benefit.

@anime market: guess how they fixed that...

@"I agree with your stated intent, but I don't see how competing with localization groups expands the audience when there's so many untranslated VNs to choose from.": maybe the translators Don't Want To Translate those VN's?

If I translate D.C.III, and someone translates D.C.III at the same time, I am motivated to translate faster, translate better, be the better product. If group B (the later project) brings the VN out faster than group A (the earlier project) does, then the public gets to read it earlier. We have more translations, more quickly, and at better quality. Everyone wins.

Secondly I Want to translate D.C.III. To say that I should go translate something else because i am not maximizing your ability to read more VNs is not a moral highground argument. I live for myself. Not for you. Nor for the public.

Thirdly, my translation is in creative commons attribution. https://fuwanovel.net/novels/61

MG can take my work without permission, and work off it if they so see fit. They can reappropriate it for their product. No progress is ever lost.

I consider myself to be group B in my above example. The problem with your argument is that the group A in my example still doesn't even exist.

@DC3 other translators: well duh, that's how we got speedsubbing in anime fansubbing. and then "quality subs"

@want to translate: pretty much. that's actually how a lot of fansubbing is like too (and scanlation).

@creative commons: I should say that even though it might be under this, MangaGamers might not want to do it (for their stupid reasons... dunno why they won't because it'll cut their costs to distribute it anyways). or the problem could be that they are selling it for the _translation_ but that also doesn't make sense (lul is the game itself free? no)

I should reiterate that the debate over intellectual property is outside the scope of my original argument. However, your view of property is very black and white. What about rentals (e.g., a rented DVD)? Services (e.g., antivirus software)? You don't "own" either of these, and you're not free to do with them as you wish. A rental has to be returned (or in some cases, destroyed). Paid antivirus software requires a subscription. These don't neatly fall into the black and white property categories that you've described. There's also entire industries that would collapse without intellectual property protection, such as drug development (I'm somewhat skeptical that a Kickstarter paradigm would be able to fund research and development of the next anti-cancer drug). And what about unlawfully accessed information (e.g., identity theft)? Don't you have a right to your own personal information (i.e., a right to privacy)? If so, do you have the right to sell it (e.g., data collection for marketing, which funds the Internet as we know it)? If so, do you have the right to sell it for specific uses only (e.g., it can be used for marketing, but not shared with the government in order to spy on you)? There's so many shades of grey that an absolutist argument on property rights ignores or forbids.

Competition is inherently wasteful. But yes, you get the best one of two VN translations. The other translation effort is essentially "wasted". Competition can be good or bad; it depends on context as I explained before.

I actually never claimed the moral high ground (i.e., claiming that what you're doing is objectively and irrefutably wrong). I specifically stated this in an earlier post in this thread, but that post mysteriously disappeared. You are indeed free to do as you wish so long as no one takes you to court. But it seemed to me like your decision to translate Da Capo 3 (and host Fuwanovel) was fundamentally based on promoting VNs in the best and most efficient way possible, not simply doing it because you could. Forgive me if I was mistaken. (Also, it's rather uncalled for to misrepresent my argument in order to criticize my motives. That's in rather poor taste.)

Against the "I'm doing it because I want to" argument, I pose this question. I'm sitting in a small room with 10 other people at work. I start humming, which irritates some of the others in the room. 5 of them ask me to stop. 3 don't care. 1 asks me to continue. Should I keep humming? Humming is not illegal. It's not even wrong. But I'll probably stop because I want to be courteous to those around me. In some ways, this analogy is similar to the current situation with Da capo 3. Are you morally obligated to cease your translation if Circus / Mangagamer were to ask you to stop? Maybe not. Would it be rather rude to not comply? I think so. Would continuing to hum / translate cause unnecessary strife within the office / VN community? I think so.

I could argue this point further, but you rejected the idea that fan translation should seek to maximize the number of translated VNs (which promotes the spread of VNs and creates new fans). As that was the foundation of the argument you're responding to here, that essentially kills this line of discussion.

"Paid antivirus software requires a subscription."

I'm not sure why you'd pay for antivirus software, it doesn't actually do much for you other than slow down your computer.

@Rentals: well in this case you wouldn't have _bought_ the product.

"entire industries that would collapse without intellectual property protection, such as drug development"

lol no, "intellectual property" fucked it up so much that they felt they could copyright random genes, which then prevented research on those genes for example.

"And what about unlawfully accessed information (e.g., identity theft)? Don't you have a right to your own personal information (i.e., a right to privacy)?"

this is so off and not really part of what was being addressed that it's really funny.

"Competition is inherently wasteful. But yes, you get the best one of two VN translations. The other translation effort is essentially "wasted". Competition can be good or bad; it depends on context as I explained before."

wasted for whom, you?, their hard work [for no money] while you can just play the fruits of their labor either way for free and then insult them for not being "efficient" for you? oooookay

"You are indeed free to do as you wish so long as no one takes you to court."

protip, you can't get into court for doing this unless you sell it for money (like actually sell it for money), then it's on the black side of the law.

"I could argue this point further, but you rejected the idea that fan translation should seek to maximize the number of translated VNs (which promotes the spread of VNs and creates new fans). As that was the foundation of the argument you're responding to here, that essentially kills this line of discussion."

Because it's not.

And I don't understand this idea, that you can lecture me about how I should use my free time because I am not maximizing the rate of return in your opinion. In my opinion I am maximizing my rate of return. The 2nd point is I don't care if you don't think I am not maximizing returns. It is the entrepreneur's job to find a way to profit in a digital world where ppl are willing to provide what they are selling for free. If they cannot compete with ppl who can do it for free, then they are outcompeted. Full stop. It is not the business of the government to hold back every single one of these ppl who are willing to do it for free, JUST so that the uninnovative businessman can continue to get his dough. We ask that the uninnovative businessman compete harder, innovate, or get out and go find a dayjob. This is how you achieve economic efficiency.

I should note if the industry with how many "professional" translators can't outcompete a group with say 1-2 "amateur" translators... I'm sorry, that's just funny. (but it's true, because apparently it's happening). who's the one who should have a bigger motivation, and who's the one that should have more resources.

MangaGamer officially has the DC III project on suspension with no plans to resume anytime soon. Infact there hasn't been ANY word of it since 2011 (refer to http://vntls.tindabox.net/project/da-capo-iii/). It is now a year and 7 months later and you're suggesting Aaeru should step down and move aside for an official translator who isn't even translating the VN in question? You're a laugh and a half. Perhaps you should consider doing a bit of research and getting your facts straight before you start posting counterproductive opinions and expanding upon them, just to make yourself look like a fool. If you don't support a fanmade translation, don't use it. It's that simple. Don't come in here telling the translator to back off because you selfishly believe that your opinion is correct and that everyone should follow it. The translator wants to finish the project, and us supporters want to see it finished too. If you argue that the fan translation will hurt MangaGamer, then they have no one to blame but themselves since this project wouldn't even be going if not for their incompetence.

just a note, given how licenses work, it could be that the actual creator of the game is hesitant on bringing DC3 to the US market (be it "because" of fan translations - which is pretty silly, or because MangaGamer might not have done as well distributing Da Capo 1 and 2 for example)

This fact only makes this debate irrelevant to the case of DC III, that does not make his arguments invalid. Since it's pretty clear now that they're arguing just for the sake of arguing, I don't see why you would call him a fool and say outright he is not supporting on fanmade translation. There was NEVER mentioned anywhere that he rejected fan translation and I don't see how his opinions are "counterproductive". He is stating something very simple: "competition over a VN translation only decreases the number of translated VNs" and I don't see how it is false in any way. Then of course it might not be relevant in this case, because the translator do whatever he wants to do.

When there are so few actually translated VNs, it is debatable that giving choice is more important than giving more translated VNs. Just ask people what they would want, I think you know what the answer would be.

the problem of this would be the fact that this topic in particular is mainly talking about Da Capo III.

(next one split, cause why not, it's long)

The second point is that stating the above is stating the obvious. For the record, there has never been a single simultaneous translation of a VN by 2 groups since the 'beginning'. At least none such thing occurred until Air and Mahoyo and only because those 2 are very special examples.

since I wasn't around for those 2, what were the reasons there? o.o

The other problem with the argument about overlapping work is that we are assuming that Fan TLs exists to serve the spreading of VNs. That could not be more untrue. That is a very new idea that I started when I launched this place. When I first arrived at the scene, almost all fan TLs did it for the honour of being able to claim it (with variations). And even I am no exception.

VNTL is akin to anime fansub. You do it for the reputation capital.

At the end of 2010 I interviewed 39 VN translators at the time, no one I spoke to had this idea that you might want to maximize overall output. People don't care about that. They are usually translating for themselves. It's either e-peen or bcuz they just want to because this particular title is their favourite.

And so you cannot centrally plan people's work to maximize output. In fact the idea is irrelevant, because translators have their own goal in mind. They don't spend 2 years of their free time translating full novels for free without good reason. Saying competition is inherently wasteful is an attempt to imply that there is an alternative. There IS no alternative. Unless you use guns (aka copyright).

It is not through the collective holding back of individual liberty that causes the overall system to move towards VN expansion (and not even if you try to use peer pressure to get your way). Rather it is individuals motivated by their own selfish goals that causes this to happen. Some people do it for the fun of it. Some do it because that one is their favourite title (and nothing u say can steer them from it). Others like insemination do it for the e-peen.

ah here I can rant about stuff more.

"assuming that Fan TLs exists to serve the spreading of VNs"

this is definitely untrue, especially in animefansubbing, I'd imagine someone might be raging and pulling their hair out because of how "stupid" fansubbing groups are for even bothering to exist atm because of how many series Crunchyroll picks up per season atm.

@anime fansub

yep, also it's cause they want to.

actually if the person that started this convo tried to go to most fansubbing group channels with this, they'd laugh at you. and then ridicule you, and then probably laugh at you more. I think some might insta ban you from their IRC channel.

why? because they do it either for yes

- epeen

- because they can

- (sometimes because they like the show)

- trolling either other fansubbing groups... or the industry

- rarely because the show is untranslated (or something like Rockman.EXE Stream would've been translated already) (also I actually tried to do that, it was really annoying')

on another note, translating is really hard work, and sometimes actually annoying to do.

Put onto that for fantranslation... that you're doing it for free, but it still takes a longgggggggg time

and then someone complains that you're wasting your time doing it, when some Y other series that isn't translated SHOULD BE TRANSLATED [or else you're not maximizing [the consumer/their/whatever] BENEFIT]

Honestly I'd be pissed if someone did that, because hi I'm doing it for free, and you're just sitting on your ass just telling people what to do

... while I'm working my ass off trying to translate something [for free, basically no benefit to me], and possibly also trying to do... say... a fulltime job [to actually like, fucking pay bills and survive]...

and you're just playing games and sitting on your butt having fun, maybe doing some kinda job that actually makes money

and then somehow the consumer deserves the translation.

(also note that they might not want to or like whatever other game/series you want translated lol)

on another note, guess how the anime industry fought (and are actually beating the fan(Translators/)subbers)

because they out-compete them in speed

seriously, how do you compete with a company that gets the original japanese script basically a week before the anime episode releases. [hint: quality, CR's video player isn't that good, it doesn't style too well yet :/ they're working on it from what I know tho, but it's hard. also flash is funny and stupid at the same time]

this post took longer than it should.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm probably not going to argue this much more because I don't have much more to say (and the reaction has been overwhelmingly hostile).

Aaeru is making an ideological argument based on the premise that intellectual property should not exist (try as I might to shift away from that). Arguing that premise philosophically would be like arguing that communism is wrong philosophically. It's futile and impossible to prove either way. We know communism doesn't work because various implementations of it were tried and did not succeed. We have no such experience with freedom from intellectual property (that I know of). Even government-funded academic research utilizes intellectual property (patents). All we know is that shifting to an economy without intellectual property would shake the very foundations of capitalism as we know it. That's not something you want to do unless you're damn sure it's going to work. I'm not convinced. But I admit that I can't logically refute the idea.

Also, you need to cool down Aaeru. I'm not sure why you seem to take everything I say as a personal attack. I'm expressing my viewpoints as objectively and nonjudgmentally as I can manage.

And the problem with your argument is that no1 else is translating D.C.III okay? MG is not currently translating it. It was never even announced officially. They said one time they have their eyes on it at an anime con in 2010. After that there were a few passing-mentions of it. But no work has ever commenced.

A valid point. At the moment there's no direct competition. But they've localized the previous two games in the series and they've expressed interest in localizing the third. It's likely Da Capo 3 would be localized in a reasonable amount of time (say, <5 years) in the absence of fan translator involvement. To a large extent, I'm anticipating a problem that hasn't yet arisen, because when it actually happens it'll be too late. The further a fan translation progresses, the more likely the translation group will refuse to comply with a C&D when localization does begin, and the greater the potential loss of effort if the translation group does comply.

Of course, that begs the question: why should Mangagamer be given any deference at all? Why should fan translators work around them instead of the other away around? One response to that is that localization choices (the list of VNs a given localization group can choose to localize) are limited, much more limited than fan translation choices. They're limited by licensing issues. They have a limited number companies that are willing to work with them. There's a host of other issues that can prevent localization of specific titles as well.

To the argument that the creator's (Circus's) wishes regarding its creations (Da capo 3) are irrelevant and should be ignored:

I'm a bit taken aback. But I should point out that the creation of Da capo 3 was funded by a system based on intellectual property. Circus had the expectation at the time of creation that they would be able to exercise property rights in order to achieve a return on their investment (by selling the title in Japan). In teaming up with Mangagamer, they expected to be able to exercise property rights on a modified version of their title to achieve an additional return on their investment (by selling the title outside of Japan). Under the current system, this money funds the creation of additional titles. To suddenly change the rules and say "Sorry, your intellectual property rights are forfeit because I disagree with them and we're better off without them" seems a bit off. Ideals about intellectual property reform should be applied prospectively, not retrospectively. Otherwise the reform would break a fundamental tenet of legal theory. And such reform should be enacted by public agreement, not individuals. Otherwise it's just vigilantism.

Also, Fuwanovel doesn't host localized VNs. That IS a tacit acknowledgment of intellectual property rights.

There is a difference between maximising the number of translated VNs, and maximising the number of translations.

Downy expressed my view on this matter. I see little added value in having choice of translation, assuming the original translation isn't terrible.

P.S. I hadn't read Aaeru's previous post when I wrote this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, Fuwanovel doesn't host localized VNs. That IS a tacit acknowledgment of intellectual property rights.

Actually it is not. It's not principled. The reason why i dont host MG & Jast stuff is to help ease people into the ideas of freedom to share and freedom to improve on published works. Give it some more time when the climate is right, I will start hosting MG & Jast titles.

To the argument that the creator's (Circus's) wishes regarding its creations (Da capo 3) are irrelevant and should be ignored:

I'm a bit taken aback.

How do I teach someone that the government has been lying to you? The answer is you cannot.

The only way you will ever understand real copyright, is if you put aside what you think you know to be true, and just read from sources that is outside of the blanket of info that your friends who run the TV and Media continue to feed you. There is no other way.

Luckily, the ridiculous push by industry (who is also your government) to kill off people who want to share & build on their culture, has made everyone completely lose all respect for copyright. Now over 50% of US people under the age of 30 engages in piracy. The teens generation is even better, they dont care about your 'copyrightsss'. And the more they ramp up enforcement efforts, the more people will wake up and switch to the free sharing and freedom to improve camp. What if we give it another 10 years? 30 years? 50 years? The temporary suspension of the people's right to copy to promote the progress of knowledge, is OVER. You cannot encourage the public domain by suspending the people's right to copy. Not only is it logically impossible, it is technically impossible when every person in the country runs a printshop and prints copies for $0.00. In 50 to 100 years time, there will be no such thing as copyright. This is not a matter of if. The reason is because enforcement is impossible unless you completely destroy your basic human right to privacy, freedom of expression, and freedom to repeat pieces of expressions that you listened to. You can either keep your civil liberties like privacy and freedom of expression. Or you can give them up in order to pay your artists. There is no in-between.

  • “… If you want, in real effects, copyright to last for even one year in the non-commercial sense, then the minimum requirement is for you to start by abolishing the internet and any other form of mass communications medium. Any restrictions you’d require to enforce non-commercial copying will have to be strict enough that the communications medium simply won’t work anymore. That’s how the real world works.” – Lawrence Lessig (Co-founder of Creative Commons)

  • “…The thing is you cannot enforce the copyright monopolies and other forms of intellectual property without looking at what people send online to each other. That is after all where these files are being shared. And if you are looking at what people are sending to each other, you are also by definition starting to limit freedom of speech. That is why you see hundreds of thousands of Europeans on the streets, rallying against what politicians thought was a done-deal. So they were taken completely by surprise, as were the American politicians with SOPA. You cannot enforce these old monopolies laws without cracking down on Fundamental Civil Rights. Which is why you are seeing entire generation rising up against these monopolies.” - Rick Falkvinge (Founder of the first Pirate Party)

It's easy to point out why copyright isn't a human right.

On this page (http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20121027/01201420862/funniestmost-insightful-comments-week-techdirt.shtml) Begin reading from where it says "Copyright grants its holder certain rights.".

So copyright isn't a natural human right. Instead I'll tell you what is a natural human right. Freedom of expression is a natural human right. It's easy to illustrate this if you cite the US 1st amendment.

"Congress shall make no law... prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the (people's) freedom of speech,"

It does not say, 'Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise or abridging the freedom of speech, unless someone wants to repeat someone else's speech.'

Stopping people from repeating each other's speech IS abridging the freedom of speech.

So these people cannot even obey the very first law in their lawbook.

(by the way it doesn't matter which country's law I cite. because natural human rights precede law. they come from the mere fact of being human, they do not come from your State.

"A right is no right at all if it is granted to you by the benevolence of your masters." http://jim.com/rights.html)

Further reading at Crosbie's blog: http://culturalliberty.org/blog/index.php?id=283

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The other problem with the argument about overlapping work is that we are assuming that Fan TLs exists to serve the spreading of VNs. That could not be more untrue. That is a very new idea that I started when I launched this place. When I first arrived at the scene, almost all fan TLs did it for the honour of being able to claim it (with variations). And even I am no exception.

VNTL is akin to anime fansub. You do it for the reputation capital.

Fair enough. But reputation capital is based on "creating good" (tentatively defined in the discussion above as maximizing the number of translated VNs). Feats of effort typically only matter to people if they produce results that people care about (in this case, producing translations of VNs that people want to read). Conversely, feats of effort that run contrary to the public good earn (net) scorn. Thus reputation capital is maximized by translating VNs that people want to read, and avoiding unnecessary conflict (e.g., by not respecting the wishes of creators). Admittedly, from the perspective of the translator reputation capital is only one factor in the equation, although it's an important one.

Regarding comparisons to anime fansubbing: In the interests of avoiding a moralistic argument, I'm going to refrain from commenting. Suffice to say, there are important differences between VN fan translation and anime fansubbing, although there are extreme elements on both sides of the intellectual property debate that would argue otherwise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Last page of thread summed up:

Q: Who has the right to translate stuff?

A: Whoever wants to

Q: What if someone wants you to stop?

A: Why should I care

/A: It's courteous with a mix of utilitarianism

A: Good thing I'm not utilitarian.

Q: What if your actions inhibit overall progress of bringing VNs to the west?

A: Good thing I'm not utilitarian.

Q: 競り合い。

A: 不存在。

Q: Intellectual Properties

A: Copyright is dead

Q: Reputation capital is from public good

A: I thought I said I wasn't utilitarian. I think you're looking for Kiritsugu.

maxfactory_figma_emiya_kiritsugu01.jpg

I think you've both made your points by now, and should realize you probably won't see eye to eye on this issue. Well done on keeping the argument relatively civil, but 8396ee13_zpsee2084c6.jpg

Okay fine. Continue. "Grabs popcorn"

P.S: Anyone know how to resize images? That image is way too big to have the effect I intended it to have.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Aaeru: I'm curious what your response would be, so let me pose a hypothetical scenario. Suppose you released your finished translation patch, and you found out that the patched game was being sold by pirates in some backwater out of the reach of the law (as we know it). For the sake of argument, let's say that the targeted "audience" had poor or no Internet access (maybe even heavily censored Internet access), and perhaps didn't even realize that the patched game could be obtained for free. How would you feel about this situation?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

oops sry didnt see reply.

of course that's fine, how could i possibly have a problem with that. the ppl who are doing the selling, are exchanging their labour (printing copies on DVDs for ppl), with the ppl who are willing to pay some small amount for that manufacturing cost. The seller wins, because he can make a humble living serving his community. the buyer wins, because he now has access to culture and knowledge that wouldnt have been available to him otherwise. He would be better cultured. The company is of course completely unaffected. in fact they gain from the spreading of their works and the cultural buzz created that they may be able to monetize it some day when the internet builds up in this backwater area.

And even if they had internet access, by not knowing that it could be done for free, or not bothering to work out how it can be done for free, there's the gap for entrepreneurs to jump in and serve people. Because people only work with the knowledge they have. If they do not know apples can be had for $2 cheaper down the street, therefore they pay higher prices. If people knew that using yokattaweb.jp is cheaper than buying from JList, then they'd save money. Or maybe 4GB is too large a file it will take days to download at their internet speed. Or maybe they want to save the hassle of having to learn it. 'No i dont want to search through sharing sites to find the song I want. iTunes has it for a buck. I'll just buy from there. it saves time.' That's why steam is outcompeting the pirate copies. because it saves time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your response is intriguing. Let me add some additional information to the scenario.

Upon further investigation, you discover that the version of the game they're selling has been edited. Claiming they translated the game, they've stripped out all credits to the fan translator (you) and have replaced them with their own credit roll. It's quite clear to you however that your translation was used, verbatim. In addition, they sell the game at a hefty profit, well beyond the cost of the media used for distribution.

Would this new information change your reaction at all?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...