What are the differences between visual novel, eroge, gal game, and a dating sim?

[Guest]

Somebody explains in this page:

http://anime.stackexchange.com/questions/4926/what-are-the-differences-between-visual-novel-eroge-gal-game-and-a-dating-sim

Eroge (エロゲ) is a Japanese shortening of "erotic game". These can also be called H-games. Native Japanese speakers sometimes use the term to describe games without any sexual content (e.g. Clannad), but in English this isn't really a correct use of the term. Eroge can be any game with sex scenes (also called H-scenes). This includes some games that are not traditionally included as visual novels or dating sims. For example, Kamidori Alchemy Meister is an example of a game without a great deal of visual novel content but which still qualifies as an eroge.

some people get angry when they hear the word "dating sim" being misused...

i mean if kotaku uses it that way, that definition becomes the definition. u can't fight against kotaku

edit: also that's wrong as well because native JP speakers dont use "eroge" to talk about games w/ no sex content, like clannad. clannad would just be a normal adventure game (ADV)

[zoom909]

I predict massive semantics will follow, which I'm going to stay out of because things are what they are.

[sanahtlig]

According to J-List, the games they sell are hentai dating sims from Japan.

[Down]

Damn, there are still people reading kotaku.

[Darklord Rooke]

Visual Novel (ビジュアルノベル), often shortened to VN, is a general type of game with a lot of dialogue and minimal gameplay (usually the gameplay is reduced to just making choices at a few plot points to determine what route one enters). It may or may not involve any romance or sexual encounters. For example, Danganronpa could qualify as a visual novel, but probably not for any of the other categories here. A more canonical example would be Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, though purists will sometimes insist on calling it a "Sound Novel" as this is the official description. More on this in the related terms section. Calling something a visual novel emphasizes the "novel" aspect and suggests that there is at least some semblance of a story. It would not usually be used to describe eroge which are solely sex scenes.

That is the worst definition of a 'visual novel' I have come across. A lot of adventure games fit this definition.

No wait..... I stand corrected. Visual novel(n) - synonym for porn is worse. So it's the second worst definition I've come across.

[sanahtlig]

De facto, visual novels are the games listed in VNDB. Since they're the only English database for these games around and all.

[Down]

De facto, visual novels are the games listed in VNDB. Since they're the only English database for these games around and all.

Since visual novel (ビジュアルノベル) is also a japanese term, and the immense majority of them are japanese games, why would an English database qualify for a definition? Also, using a database for definition probably raises other issues that I'm not willing to think about.

[sanahtlig]

A definition is a somewhat arbitrary concept used for categorization purposes (and communication), which in turn are used to retrieve games of X type. If the retrieval system you're using uses a particular definition, then you're basically entrapped within that definition (unless you can find an alternative retrieval system). For example, there's a surprising number of VN players that have never heard of Idolmaster, mostly likely because it's not listed on VNDB. Idolmaster has essentially been excluded from their concept of visual novels without them realizing it or having a choice in the matter. Since VNDB is so widely used, its mere existence shapes how English speakers view and communicate about this amorphous "cloud" of games from Japan.

By this logic, the actual Japanese term is not necessarily relevant. Languages can and do evolve like terms with different meanings.

[Eurobeatz]

Damn, there are still people reading kotaku.

Unfortunately, yes.

That is the worst definition of a 'visual novel' I have come across. A lot of adventure games fit this definition.

It wasn't that bad, I've seen much worse. Tons of people mention dating sims in their definitions of VNs.

[Down]

A definition is a somewhat arbitrary concept used for categorization purposes (and communication), which in turn are used to retrieve games of X type. If the retrieval system you're using uses a particular definition, then you're basically entrapped within that definition (unless you can find an alternative retrieval system). For example, there's a surprising number of VN players that have never heard of Idolmaster, mostly likely because it's not listed on VNDB. Idolmaster has essentially been excluded from their concept of visual novels without them realizing it or having a choice in the matter. Since VNDB is so widely used, its mere existence shapes how English speakers view and communicate about this amorphous "cloud" of games from Japan.

By this logic, the actual Japanese term is not necessarily relevant. Languages can and do evolve like terms with different meanings.

That strikes me as absurd, but this situation is pretty much the same than that of the manga categories. 'Shounen manga' in Japan is different than in France, because the French editors arbitrarily decides that 'this manga is a shounen' based on pretty much nothing more than 'what it looks like it is' whereas in Japan there's a much more reliable definition.

Then again, the manga categories in France always seemed absurd to me, so although this situation already exists, I can't really agree that it's a correct way of defining something. The guys at vndb probably don't have much more criteria to define what is and isn't a VN, thus that definition can't be reliable.

Defining stuff outside of rational fields like mathematics is a pain in the ass. Damn, I didn't even want to enter this debate.

[Clephas]

Eroge is a wide-ranging description for video games with an ero-element, and it can include ero-rpgs and the like as well as your average ero-VN. Dating sims are just that... the object of the game is not to get to know the characters or tell the story but to 'conquer' a female or male character in the romantic sense through strategic relationship building (often through minigames and the like). Galge is basically what they used to call moege or charage, where the story of the VN tends to take a backseat to relationship and character development, as well as cuteness and other such surface elements (always geared toward a male audience). An otome game is a general name for games geared toward a female audience with a female protagonist (it is fairly rare for an otome game to have cross-gender appeal, mostly because they have even more problems with ancient plot tropes than moege in mos cases). A yaoi game is a game where male/male romantic relationships are the norm, just as a yurige is one where a female/female relationship is the norm. An otoge is a game like Rockstar where matching the beat of the music is the basis for scoring.

I could go on, but Japanese game terminology is so varied it isn't even funny.

[Steve]

Well to be honest I've never heard a Japanese person use term "ビジュアルノベル", like ever...

So to say that vndb defines what Visual Novel is for English community is actually pretty accurate.

And like said, Clannad is sometimes also referred as Eroge, non18+ one (非18禁).

As then you have something that has no ero but has added one later (like little busters) - but its basically the same game so generalizing it as Eroge works well in any case.

And then you put that into categories, I either see the already mentioned 非18禁ゲーム (not 18 restricted game), Ｈゲーム (H game) or 18禁ゲーム (18 restricted game).

So I would use generalization of Visual Novels = Eroge.

And that people say Dating Sim, I pretty much agree as well, even Clannad is Dating Sim but it is all ages (you date there after all)

edit: also even though it might seems to a English newcomer that there is large amount of all-ages VN, there actually isn't and it is very small percentage, so maybe it is something like "RPG without character progression" - there isn't many of them but they can still be characterized as RPG by other parts of the game, just like all-ages VNs are basically the same that Eroge is, but without H-scenes.

But the genre itself is mostly defined by the H-scenes as vast majority has them (and hence my opinion that removing H from Visual Novel that had H in the first place is inexcusable crime).

Also to put that into other perspective, you probably know about those sex simulators (ILLUSION probably the most known to English community), I think those are not Visual Novels or Eroge (and as such they are not on VNDB), because they are even very different from the everyday Nukiges - Nukiges are still Eroge as they can be played "for the story" .

Where as these sex simulators are just sex simulators. Even in Nukige's H-scene, there is a progression and story within that H-scene (like it is her first time or something, you learn it and experience it with her). In sex sim, it is just sex. That's probably just like difference between porn and erotic movie.

So yeah, that is my opinion.

[Steve]

Oh also one thing, I really don't think there is any need to have this specific categorization of what is and isn't VN. For example take video games, some people say that computer video games have to have gameplay, and therefore for example "games" like Dear Esther aren't actually a game, as there is no specific game mechanic (shooting or solving puzzles or something).

But there is no point arguing if it is or isn't a game, you barely need to say someone that you "play computer games" in the 100% correct way, to people who don't understand it it is irrelevant to know if what you do is a game or not, they just see you do something on computer.

And to people who care and understand, there is no point using so wide expression, you will just use better one such as "recommend me good RPG" or "recommend me good shooter", because you already know which genre you prefer and which you don't.

Just like in VNs, I prefer nakige moege with to me cute looking characters, I can say that to people who also play VNs and they would understand. It doesn't matter if the thing is generally acknowledged to be a visual novel, as long as I enjoy it and I believe that someone who enjoys what I enjoy would also enjoy it, I will just recommend it.

That's like witch current resurgence of "roguelikes", people argue if this and that is roguelike, since it is not a dungeon but it is in space or whatever. But the idea behind the game is similar so I would know that someone who enjoyed Dungeons of Dredmor (generally accepted as rouguelike) could also enjoy FTL (about which people still argue if it is or isn't a roguelike). But it doesn't matter in the slightest, people will enjoy it and that's what entertainment is about. Just have fun

[Eurobeatz]

And that people say Dating Sim, I pretty much agree as well, even Clannad is Dating Sim but it is all ages (you date there after all)

I disagree. To me, a dating sim is a game in which the purpose is to make the player feel like they are actually dating the character(s) in the game. Romance-focused VNs such as Clannad are created for the story, and for the most part, the main characters actually have personalities, unlike in dating sims.

[Steve]

I disagree. To me, a dating sim is a game in which the purpose is to make the player feel like they are actually dating the character(s) in the game. Romance-focused VNs such as Clannad are created for the story, and for the most part, the main characters actually have personalities, unlike in dating sims.

Well story and personalities are there as well as in Hoshimemo for example, it also has great story for which people love it. And for me I enjoyed the part I was with the girls, as for me it was the simulation of dating, which I don't do in real life anymore.

So like my second post said, there is no point arguing what it and isn't dating sim as people have different opinions and feelings on what for them is and isnt it. I enjoyed the dating part and I immersed into the protagonist, therefore I was simulating dating. Just like some people were immersed into the exploration aspect of Dear Esther and thought its great gameplay element and others will argue with them that it is not a game - but to no avail, they both enjoyed it, even if for different reasons, for them it is still good piece of entertainment which is the goal it is trying to provide.

[Guest Cybersteel]

Eroge;Nukige;Nakige;Moege;Guroge

[Darklord Rooke]

Well to be honest I've never heard a Japanese person use term "ビジュアルノベル", like ever...

So to say that vndb defines what Visual Novel is for English community is actually pretty accurate.

I don't agree with VNDBs definition of a visual novel (yes, they do have one and yes, they have criteria which needs to be met before any games are added to their database.) They've made a pretty glaring error in their definition which results in games being added to the database which aren't strictly visual novels.

But at the end of the day, you're right - it doesn't really matter. It's accurate enough for its purpose. I just didn't want people thinking everyone accepts VNDB's database to be completely accurate.

[Mephisto]

All sort of weirdness in this thread...

"It would not usually be used to describe eroge which are solely sex scenes."

At that point, I was like, sorry but no.

I've never heard a japanese person use the term visual novel before, and in english I believe it more or less encompasses the medium in general.

I always took visual novel at the literal definition which is a novel with visuals (and with sound as well I guess).

Eroge in english refers to games that feature sexual content. Most Eroge are also visual novels, but not all visual novels are eroge.

The games in oreimo are referred to as eroge because they are 18+ and have sexual content, and they sort of just lump in the all-ages ones that kirino starts her brother off with because it's too much of a hassle to be overly picky on semantics.

In Kami Nomi they are referred to as "galge" because that's the type of games that Keima plays. He plays visual novels in which his goal is to conquer a heroine(he plays lots of games with just one heroine, not all the multiple heroine routes we typically have today), and I see nothing wrong with the way they use it. Also there is no sexual content mentioned, they're just games.

[Yeah Way]

A computer programme that features and whose main focus is on both written dialogue & action and illustrations of some or all of its characters/scenes.

That's surely the most barebones and legitimate definition possible, right?

[sanahtlig]

I tend to use these terms based on my audience and the idea I want to get across. If I'm talking to an intolerant mainstream audience that's squeamish about adult content, I'll use visual novel. If I want to highlight the games with adult content (which are mostly what I play), I'll use eroge.

I think one of the core features of a VN is "skip previously read text" (in other words, it has a mechanism for logging the text that has already been seen). If a game has that feature, it's almost certainly a VN. Coincidentally, it's also likely to be text-hookable. This feature might not be included in sound novels, which would still be considered VNs.

[zoom909]

This thread is nonsense. I knew it would be.

Dating sims are just that... the object of the game is not to get to know the characters or tell the story but to 'conquer' a female or male character in the romantic sense through strategic relationship building (often through minigames and the like). Galge is basically what they used to call moege or charage, where the story of the VN tends to take a backseat to relationship and character development, as well as cuteness and other such surface elements (always geared toward a male audience).

Wrong wrong wrong.

Well to be honest I've never heard a Japanese person use term "ビジュアルノベル", like ever...

They use it. But it is more of a "technical term" I guess.

So I would use generalization of Visual Novels = Eroge.

So wrong.

And that people say Dating Sim, I pretty much agree as well, even Clannad is Dating Sim but it is all ages (you date there after all)

Very wrong.

Oh also one thing, I really don't think there is any need to have this specific categorization of what is and isn't VN.

Right, but once we decide to have it...

They've made a pretty glaring error in their definition which results in games being added to the database which aren't strictly visual novels.

What is the error?

intolerant mainstream audience that's squeamish about adult content

Intolerant, huh?

[Steve]

mega wrong

Well since its mostly subjective opinion, its is only wrong for you. For me Clannad (Or Little Busters) is a dating sim, because I used it to simulate dating.

And when I talk about VNs, I talk about anime so for me its the same.

But yeah, discussion like this remind me of people arguing what is techno and what is trance and what is electro dance and whatever - it doesnt really matter, if its a good song, its a good song.

[sanahtlig]

Definitions are important as shortcuts for communication.

Example:

sanahtlig: I like RPGs.

Random Person A: Oh, you like games like Diablo?

sanahtlig: My favorite game is Baldur's Gate 2.

Random Person B: I preferred Champions of Norrath.

sanahtlig: How much memory does your computer have?

Random Person C: 1TB.

[Steve]

Yes vague definition is fine but every piece of entertainment should be unique.

For technical definitions yes, those need to be precise, but for things like Dating Sim - do you really need exactly what it must and must not have? I don't think so.

So I can throw Clannad into Dating Sim bag and be fine.

For example:

steve: I'm downloading a dating sim

random: Hm, I played Clannad but didn't like it

steve: I prefer those with H-scenes, try those

[Steve]

Like what I mean is, all the VNs and dating sims and eroges and moeges and whatever are similar so it is fine to throw them into the same category and THEN sort them by tags and such. Just like in games, you have games, thats all you need to know, you might have RPGs, but it still doesn't tell you anything. Thats why you have speific things that are much more important.

So it is important to have category for first person, 3rd person, character progression, is it fantasy or post apocalyptic.

Same with VNs, you have tags for tsundere heroine, for imouto heroine, sexual tags for rape and such, technical if it has ADV text, if it has minigames or whatever.

That is still important. But deciding exactly what is and isnt a VN or dating sim is pointless as it basically tells you nothing about the product anyways, if you want to know more you need more information.