Visual Novels on Steam Greenlight

[starfighter9]

Haven't seen any posts about this on the forum, so i thought i'd bring this up for discussion:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=93962591

Mangagamer has added Higurashi on Steam Greenlight. I haven't played Higurashi yet, but this looks like a good step forward for the VN world. In a sense, Higurashi seems like an excellent choice for international release - it doesn't have any of the sex/date-sim-ish stuff that causes most VNs to be disliked. However to be honest when i saw the artwork i was like DO NOT WANT, and many comments were flaming on the art. Also, Mangagamer has apparently changed the soundtrack (parts of it), due to copyright reasons or something.

However, there is of course a fair share of controversy, evident in the comments section. Quite a few comments are along the lines of 'this isn't a game, shouldn't be on Steam', or just wailing on VNs in general and are full of misconceptions.

A couple of examples i pulled off the comments section:

Stop it with this shit, this is Steam Greenlight, not Steam Super Kawaii Uguu Fun Time Powerpoint Presentations

Weeaboo crap with hideous artwork. Not even sure if you have the rights to this either. Keep it off Steam.

Let me get this straight, it's a game based entirely on reading a badly written porn fanfic, where the art looks like it was drawn by a 13 year old on their first tablet, yet it should definately be on the Steam store because we need more shit like it? What are you saying? It's garbage and you're eating it up because it's anime or whatever. I'm glad this will never hit the Steam store

More animuu bullshit that didn't even try to localize. If people actually tried hard to correctly localize these things with font modifications and resolutions higher than 640x480 rather than say "JAPANESE ANIMUU WEEABOOS WILL BUY!!!", maybe someone will actually bother.

THERE'S ENOUGH POORLY DRAWN PORN ON THE INTERNET ALREADY 0/10

So it was like a rollercoaster. First feeling good about VNs taking a step forward, then sadness as i am reminded of just how much distance needs to be covered. What do you guys think?

[Guest]

I dont know why they chose Higurashi. the drawings are awful, it won't get enough traction with the casuals.

It needs to be something that wows even the casuals.

Like Steins;Gate.

(also higurashi isn't even voiced?)

[ilegend]

It needs to start off with something that is targeted towards to majority of people in Steam, like teens and young adults.

Thus I agree with the choice of Steins;Gate.. Little Busters! could work as well, but I'll say putting CLANNAD or Kanon would be a good starting point of getting VNs onto Steam instead of Higurashi..

[Saber]

Yeah, the best step would be releasing a visual novel that can represent how visual novel is currently. And so something like Steins;Gate, Little Busters! would be a reasonable pick. Something like Fate/Saty Night Realta Nua would also be not bad.

The problem with many steam gamers is that their definition of a 'game' is something like fps, rpg or mmo, and compared to those genre, VN is very different. Of course there are also VN with rpg elements and I could see these titles more accepted in the steam gamers community as a whole

[starfighter9]

Seems we're all in agreement here that Higurashi is not the best choice. It's the licensing issues though, VN companies have to give consent first and this was probably the best they could get. Personally i feel the best start would be Fate/Stay Night, since its basically a JRPG in VN form and Realta Nua cuts the h-scenes.

Anyway i was just surfing around and found a possible reason why we probably won't be seeing translated VNs of epic quality on Steam anytime soon. For example, Little Busters! retails at $115 when i last checked. That's about 3 times the cost of the average Steam game at international prices. If they were to sell it at say $39.99 they would need to get 3x the original number of buyers, assuming Japan buyers remain the same they would have to get 2x that amount of overseas buyers. If they went for ~$60 they would 'only' need as many buyers outside of Japan, but i don't think there's that many people willing to pay that much for it. And if they sold it for the same price they might not even get enough buyers to make back the cost of paying the translators. I doubt any company would take that risk, i think getting half as many buyers overseas is already a very good result, they can very well afford to sit pretty with the profits off their Japanese fanbase.

(For those interested i saw this concept in a debate over why Idolm@ster will never be localised, and realised it applies quite well to VNs too)

Well having said that i'd still buy Higurashi if it came out on Steam, if only to show that the market exists and to encourage localisation of further VNs.

[俊 (Jun)]

"Stop it with this shit, this is Steam Greenlight, not Steam Super Kawaii Uguu Fun Time Powerpoint Presentations"

^Lol at this comment. He actually does have a point as most VNs don't feature a lot of "gameplay" and are more comparable to "powerpoint presentations". Although I don't see anything wrong with putting VNs on Steam and would gladly have some "super kawaii uguu fun time". XD

Also, I doubt localizations would ever end up being as much as $115. It's normal for the Japanese versions but the English versions always end up being like 30% - 40% of the original price lol.

Honestly, the way I see it is that it would require too much effort to really bring out VNs to the western market. There are too many costs and risks involved. I wish anyone luck though who does try to accomplish this feat. w

[Guest]

Anyway i was just surfing around and found a possible reason why we probably won't be seeing translated VNs of epic quality on Steam anytime soon. For example, Little Busters! retails at $115 when i last checked... etc

Japan has been really slow uptake on how the rest of the world works and is incredibly resistant on the encroaching Western ideas of monetizing the internet, Blocked by the stubborn minds of old fogeys.

The Humble Bundle-like method works. It's a matter of whether they'd be willing to compete harder and actually do some research on what the leaders in this field are doing instead of insisting on their 20th century business models.

...but no. they hide behind their little government granted commercial monopolies (copyrightｓ) and resist change. resist technology. resist innovation.

Monopoly never works, because they stagnate innovative thinking which is the lifeblood of all economies. They need to take a page from the Swiss government which issued a report regarding piracy: "It's Innovate or Die."　

https://twitter.com/Aaeru_/status/253414156416479232

note: they dont have to be old fogeys. indeed they are young fogeys in the VN industry.

[Sakamoto]

This is a good example of "good game catered to wrong market". I don't think the majority of Americans are interested in this kind of game. They prefer fps/fighting games/etc. Visual novels are a niche market over there, catering to anime/manga lovers as such. And yes, the drawing is horrible enough as it is, but MangaGamer had to further butcher the soundtrack with boring, repetitive music. =.=

Off-topic: Nice to see another Singaporean who enjoys visual novels lol~

[ElectroNick]

Higurashi is a poor choice. Now if they would have put up KiraKira all ages edition I would have bought that again in a heartbeat.

Also isn't "Analogue: A Hate Story" a visual novel on Steam already? I mean, its on my library list. Why didn't people bitch about that?

[trhvmn]

Lol'd at the ignorance at the comments. Calling Higurashi porn? Please do some research first.

But yeah, it's a bad choice. I don't know exactly which VNs Mangagamer has liscenced, so I dunno which ones would be better options, though.

[TheWingless]

Sounds like deliberate trolling to me. I wouldn't even take those comments seriously(in fact, I laugh at them). There are 74 pages and those are like, the first 5 you found? Doesn't seem that bad. If you want a genuinely good comment, you should post your own, and get more people to post about it(since I didn't even know that they tried to put it on Greenlight). However, reading the first 5 or so pages, it seems most people are complaining that it's the Mangagamer version, which is an entirely different problem from trolling/ignorant comments(and ignorant people will pretty much remain ignorant, unless they're "directly" dealt with... hard enough to get some of my friends to look into anime/visual novels).

Little Busters! and Steins;Gate are obviously impossible suggestions, and I don't think I should have to explain why. F/SN Realta Nua is pretty much the same.

There are like, three criteria for an actual good suggestion:

1: There must be an official translation. This way, that "developer" might actually have a chance to be allowed to have it published on Steam. Not to mention that $100 "fee" to have it posted... Higurashi does actually manage to fit this. Go Go Nippon... well, that's like, 4 hours long? and I doubt that many will be satisfied with that.

2: Must not have any sex in it. Steam seems to be firm in their stance on this. There's a thread that tried to appeal, but I don't think it'll get far. I'd post it here if I knew where it was. I realize that the above suggestions actually are all-ages though.

3: A majority of the people seem to think that there needs to be good art, or even displayed at a modern resolution/aspect ratio, for it to ever be appealing to anyone on Steam. Steins;Gate is actually the closest to fit all of these visual aspects. That's not saying that LB!/FSN looks bad or anything though.

My library and knowledge of visual novels is pretty bad compared to most people, but I don't think there are many that can fit those criteria. Greenlight is likely to be a dead end for anything that is a visual novel that people attempt to upload.

And then there's are problems with Greenlight itself.

[starfighter9]

^ I sincerely doubt its just trolling. I've seen my fair share of people who have themselves convinced VNs are just 'pervert games' for otakus and won't bother to verify their opinions. As for the impossibility:

1: It's not impossible. For example, Minori cooperated with NNL and Mangagamer to release ef. Nitro+ has an existing partnership with JAST USA, who brought over Demonbane with cooperation from TLwiki. Nothing is stopping a company from tying up with a fan translation group to make the translation official. Except maybe hubris.

2: Well a defining characteristic of any good VN is that you can take out the h-scenes and still have the story. This just prevents the cheap run-of-the-mill nukige from being released, but hardly impedes any classics. Only VN i can think off that i wouldn't play without h-scenes is Katawa Shoujo.

3: Imo art isn't that important when it comes to VNs. If you have a good enough story as long as the art is not terrible people will love it. Sure the average gamer might be turned off but then those won't ever get into VNs anyway. As a non-VN example i point to Paradox Interactive, their graphics are subpar but their games are dearly loved by their fans, its the deep and immersive grand strategy that sells the game rather than the looks.

In the end it's all about whether the companies are willing to make the leap ,which is the main stumbling block as has been mentioned earlier. Their Japan sales are high enough so they just sit on their laurels and relax. Western companies are forced to innovate because of piracy but Jp otakus just snap up whatever the companies throw out at whatever high prices so their position is safe, at least for now.

Also i don't think Greenlight is meant to be an end in itself, it seems like Mangagamer is just testing the waters.

http://www.mangagamer.com/allages/Titles/Catalog/1

http://www.mangagamer.com/r18/

The rest of Mangagamer's catalog. Far from impressive, Kira Kira as mentioned is like the only other 'famous' VN.

I think Analogue wasn't bashed because it was directly released by Steam rather than having to go through Greenlight. So there's no 'hey guys decide if you want this' period for people to throw their hate at. Also it's an OELVN so there won't be the 'OMG WEEABOO STUFF DO NOT WANT' haters.

[TheWingless]

^ I sincerely doubt its just trolling. I've seen my fair share of people who have themselves convinced VNs are just 'pervert games' for otakus and won't bother to verify their opinions.

Either way, I wouldn't bother with them. They're the group of people that are very hard to convince unless a friend were to convince them otherwise. I think I had a friend who had this mentality before.

1: Nitro+ has an existing partnership with JAST USA,

While they buy out fan translations, I consider this an official release, because the original company recognizes and allows the English translation/release . If more games were selected and put out by JAST (come on Steins;Gate, where are you? didn't your fan translation get bought out!?), this would be amazing. Especially if there was one from their library of games put up on Steam... Steins;Gate would be a good candidate when it actually gets released.

2: Well a defining characteristic of any good VN is that you can take out the h-scenes and still have the story.

There are a few visual novels that could do this, and I have a feeling that it's easy to remove because they were just forced to put it in. Whether or not the original producer/publisher is okay with this is up in the air. If there are good games with official English translations with H-Scenes that could be removed, that would be great.

3: Imo art isn't that important when it comes to VNs. If you have a good enough story as long as the art is not terrible people will love it.

I'm not saying that the visuals are the most important thing to a visual novel. When a visual novel gets put up somewhere and there's a gallery, and that gallery is really gonna show the art. Me personally? I'd find it strange for someone to pick a story for just art and not the story though. The problem is convincing them in a few words (It better be a darn good summary) to make them want to play (and pay, there's no humble bundle-style pricing) for the story in that case. To begin with, this was only because some people were mentioning that Higurashi's art was awful. The first two are far more important.

Also i don't think Greenlight is meant to be an end in itself, it seems like Mangagamer is just testing the waters.

http://www.mangagamer.com/allages/Titles/Catalog/1

http://www.mangagamer.com/r18/

The rest of Mangagamer's catalog. Far from impressive, Kira Kira as mentioned is like the only other 'famous' VN.

I think Analogue wasn't bashed because it was directly released by Steam rather than having to go through Greenlight. So there's no 'hey guys decide if you want this' period for people to throw their hate at. Also it's an OELVN so there won't be the 'OMG WEEABOO STUFF DO NOT WANT' haters.

I have never read Kira Kira, but in that case, I find it odd that they would not have tried to put that one on Greenlight, as some other people have said.

Analogue was fairly good IMO. It would be nice if we could see how much that sold on Steam.

[Red]

Steins;Gate really is the perfect title for submission (and not even necessarily for Greenlight, they could go directly to Valve with it). It's already well-established with fans of anime, and they can push the fact that it has character designs by Ryohei Fuke, someone who has also worked on illustrations for Metal Gear Solid. This would get the attention of gamers who aren't into "Super Kawaii Uguu Fun Time". JAST has been trying to make it happen, but 5pb. has been sitting on it, and I'm quite frankly discouraged by it.

[harry_kinomoto]

A quick guide to creating a VN that will be popular with Western audiences (imo):

-Good art + good writing (self-explanatory. And as much as it displeases me to admit, the original VN art for both Clannad and Kanon falls woefully short of the standards of people used to THIS. And while there def have been games that can sell with crap art, trying to do this is just taking a gamble bcos most Western players tend to judge by first impressions. We don't mind that much because we know how to overlook things if content is good enough; others don't. Steins;Gate is probably a good benchmark as mentioned. )

-Anything that can be animated must be animated as much as possible. Essential to help capitalise on the VN format of text AND visuals. (F/SN's efforts at presenting their fight scenes were pretty good. Little Busters' fights were not bad - but another gamble because people will slam that text-only format as being extremely primitive.)

-Nothing that is liable to be described by Wikipedia as "stories that focus on the appeal of the female main characters". The protag MUST be given space to develop; and not limited to being a super-reliable blank slate of a personality whose sole purpose of existence is to absorb all the faults and ills of the girls around him. (Good example: Little Busters, F/SN. OK example: Clannad. Bad example: Da Capo)

-No porn. (at least not until the prejudice that VN=hentai is put to rest)

-Nothing that LOOKS like porn. As above. So please keep your skirts at a sensible length, your proportions even, and your faces NEVER looking like an AHEGAO

Honestly...>.<

It's an uphill struggle because the VN market is currently well-established: both in terms of a loyal consumer database AND a way of structuring their games that those unfamiliar with the genre might not always get. It's gonna take a real maverick to create something that has a good hope of selling, and I hope one comes along soon!

[okami55]

I think Steins;Gate would do well on Steam Green-light. I hate how Green-light has a dislike button. It already takes an absurd amount of votes just to get something green-lit. If those people don't like VNs and don't want them on Steam than that is their choice but they shouldn't ruin it for the people that do want want VNs on Steam.

[starfighter9]

I have never read Kira Kira, but in that case, I find it odd that they would not have tried to put that one on Greenlight, as some other people have said.

Analogue was fairly good IMO. It would be nice if we could see how much that sold on Steam.

I think Kira Kira would probably not be much better, since it has the bishoujo game look to it (i've never played either, not sure lol but that's what i thought on seeing it).

As for Analogue the Wikipedia page says it has sold 30k as of Aug 2012.

A quick guide to creating a VN that will be popular with Western audiences (imo):

-Good art + good writing (self-explanatory. And as much as it displeases me to admit, the original VN art for both Clannad and Kanon falls woefully short of the standards of people used to THIS. And while there def have been games that can sell with crap art, trying to do this is just taking a gamble bcos most Western players tend to judge by first impressions. We don't mind that much because we know how to overlook things if content is good enough; others don't. Steins;Gate is probably a good benchmark as mentioned. )

-Anything that can be animated must be animated as much as possible. Essential to help capitalise on the VN format of text AND visuals. (F/SN's efforts at presenting their fight scenes were pretty good. Little Busters' fights were not bad - but another gamble because people will slam that text-only format as being extremely primitive.)

-Nothing that is liable to be described by Wikipedia as "stories that focus on the appeal of the female main characters". The protag MUST be given space to develop; and not limited to being a super-reliable blank slate of a personality whose sole purpose of existence is to absorb all the faults and ills of the girls around him. (Good example: Little Busters, F/SN. OK example: Clannad. Bad example: Da Capo)

-No porn. (at least not until the prejudice that VN=hentai is put to rest)

-Nothing that LOOKS like porn. As above. So please keep your skirts at a sensible length, your proportions even, and your faces NEVER looking like an AHEGAO

Honestly...>.<

It's an uphill struggle because the VN market is currently well-established: both in terms of a loyal consumer database AND a way of structuring their games that those unfamiliar with the genre might not always get. It's gonna take a real maverick to create something that has a good hope of selling, and I hope one comes along soon!

I think you're overanalysing that image, you've really got to go the extra mile if you want to see something sexual in it. Also, for a moment i thought you meant ahoge and i was like wait, what? I had to go look up what an ahegao was, and now i cannot unsee

As for creating VNs for the western market, it's the good old circular problem. Until there can be a proven fanbase they won't take risks, but without releasing anything there can't be a proven fanbase. And Japan isn't exactly known for taking risks. Which is why we're all sad pandas here

Also i personally like VNs precisely because they're not specifically designed to cater to the western market. I like the simple style, i like the feel of reading text descriptions over seeing animations. I prefer the freedom to imagine and draw a picture of what is happening in your mind, rather than have it delivered directly.

I see there is a lot of love for Steins;Gate, can't say much about it myself as i have just started on it. But from what i've seen so far it does seem like a nice choice, the art style doesn't scream animesque moe and the story seems serious enough.

[harry_kinomoto]

I think you're overanalysing that image, you've really got to go the extra mile if you want to see something sexual in it. Also, for a moment i thought you meant ahoge and i was like wait, what? I had to go look up what an ahegao was, and now i cannot unsee

[Naraku93]

Just updating this thread.  After almost an year Higurashi has finally been approved on Greenlight, and it will probably be released soon on the store.

[nohman]

Just updating this thread.  After almost an year Higurashi has finally been approved on Greenlight, and it will probably be released soon on the store.

 

I'm partly glad, but to reiterate a common opinion here, I really wish they put forward something with more commercial appeal. It just doesn't seem like something that would be met with much success, though they may have their own reasons. They may have just been half-heartedly testing the platform. They know their business better than I do.

 

I can imagine the steam community's general response to the game.

[RusAnon]

Well, its not like they have many options there. They got only KiraKira, DaCapo and Go Go Nippon all-ages besides Higurashi, and its hard to tell which would be more successful, there's well-known anime behind Higurashi so it could do better than rest.

[nohman]

That's true, it is the more recognizable title. The thing is drawing in the people who don't know about the anime or even those who are indifferent to anime in general. That might not be who they're targeting, though. Either way, I hope it does decently enough and it doesn't dissuade any future attempts. I'll most likely buy it to support it.

[shcboomer]

Glad to hear it got Greenlighted. Anywher is a good place to start.

[Kitouski]

Welp, I own Mangagamer's physical copies, but I think I'd be willing to buy it a second time to support visual novels in the west... can farther justify it by saying at least then I could install it and play anywhere if I had the urge to. Glad to know it was greenlit, saw this on there forever ago, voted, commented, and totally forgot about it.

 

Heck, if I come across a big wad of money, I swear I'll buy a copy for every person on my friends list who doesn't know what a visual novel is or hasn't played one that I think would like it.

[solidbatman]

I'm hoping Jast decides to put Steins;Gate on Steam eventually. I firmly believe it would sell far better than Higurashi.