Lemurian Ruins

I understand your preference for these type of works (VNs with plenty of choices), as this medium distinguises itself by how much agency is given to the player through forking paths and alternate endings, and it is surely one of the main draws of the medium. However, I believe that agency can be given in different ways other than choices. For example, Umineko is engaging because the many different elements come together to draw you into the atmosphere and it gives you a mystery to solve, while Swan Song forces you to think by yourself by presenting you with the idea of how people and society as a whole would change if they were thrust into catastrophe. How would your own life change if the rules and guidelines that keep society together had no one to uphold them?

In fact, I dislike VNs with too many choices. They can often be meaningless and obscure your path towards reaching your desired ending. I'm not talking about games like Canvas 2 where you're presented, with dozens, hundreds of choices, but perhaps games like Clannad and Kara no Shoujo that leave you wondering how a seemingly meaningless choice you made many hours ago happened to lead to a Bad End. Thus, perhaps I'd say I'd rather have no choices than bad choices if that's the alternative.

In conclusion, I think a balance is necessary, and choices should exist if they make sense in the story, not just for the sake of being there. Either way, hope you enjoy Swan Song, it's one of my favorites.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Ramaladni

7 hours ago, Ramaladni said:

In fact, I dislike VNs with too many choices. They can often be meaningless and obscure your path towards reaching your desired ending. I'm not talking about games like Canvas 2 where you're presented, with dozens, hundreds of choices, but perhaps games like Clannad and Kara no Shoujo that leave you wondering how a seemingly meaningless choice you made many hours ago happened to lead to a Bad End. Thus, perhaps I'd say I'd rather have no choices than bad choices if that's the alternative.

Well, I mean, of course meaningless choices are annoying. That's why I prefer a game like Mass Effect over The Walking Dead. The former actually has a bigger impact over the events in Mass Effect 3 (do you get to save Tali, Legion, or both?). The latter is just accessory decorating.

"Balance" is a good word, so is compromise. But ironically, your final compromise seems to be "I'd rather have no choices." That's not balance. That's just giving up a good opportunity IMO.

As I've said, I've recognized that there's depth in VNs with choices, which is why I've also recognized the squandered opportunity here. A lot of people like yourself might not be bothered by VNs with no choices, but VNs with choices have left such an emotional and personal impact on me that my perception has forever been altered by the recognition that there's a much more enriching experience out there where you get to pick which girl you want to hang out with, or whether or not you get to save Japan (or fail it through one of its bad ends). That engagement in player decision is something so meaningful I just couldn't see myself enjoying something passive any longer.
 

7 hours ago, Ramaladni said:

I understand your preference for these type of works (VNs with plenty of choices), as this medium distinguises itself by how much agency is given to the player through forking paths and alternate endings, and it is surely one of the main draws of the medium. However, I believe that agency can be given in different ways other than choices. For example, Umineko is engaging because the many different elements come together to draw you into the atmosphere and it gives you a mystery to solve, while Swan Song forces you to think by yourself by presenting you with the idea of how people and society as a whole would change if they were thrust into catastrophe. How would your own life change if the rules and guidelines that keep society together had no one to uphold them?

I understand your point, but it's a perception that I don't share. I don't like mysteries, and I certainly don't trouble myself too much in solving them. Complex philosophies that make you think about society is all well and good... but in the end, does it really matter? Society's not going to change based on what you think. Society's society. I just see such armchair philosophy musing as rather superficial in the grand scheme of things.

Of course, I do enjoy my share of contemplating about life itself and how my life could change and all that good stuff, but honestly speaking, I'm someone who's more emotional than intellectual, thus the more emotional games that make me feel something rather than stories that make me think about something would be more of my cup of tea. And as I've explained thoroughly above, being a passive bystander reading a story just doesn't make me feel as emotional anymore.

It's like experiencing the joy of sex for the first time, or even discovering a new food. Once I've tasted that emotional stimulation, I developed a craving for games with choices that could no longer be satisfied by anything else. And let me reiterate what I meant by VNs with choices feel more "personal." By "personal," I meant that these stories' bad ends or good ends feel more impactful because I was the one leading up to them. I was the one who either earned that happy ending, or deserve that bad one. Whether it's a bad end or a good one, it's my decision, I've earned it because of my personality and my decision-making. It's more personal that way, and makes for a more engaging experience where the good ending has more meaning, especially one where the main characters also have to fight tooth and nail to earn that happy end. In other words, there's an illusion that the good ending happens because you played a pivotal role. It's not true, obviously, but that's the joy of gaming and illusion. Makes you feel good about yourself and the story too.

Edited November 25, 2018 by LemiusK

21 hours ago, LemiusK said:

snip

With my statement, I had meant that if the alternative is a lousy choice system, I would prefer to have a few choices that are meaningful instead of extra fluff. If you're not familiar with those games, they're the very reason why people nowadays instantly default to guides and use walkthroughs even for games with meaningful and thought out choice systems. Basically, "more is less." I think it's a little ironic that you singled out ME3 since it doesn't matter if Legion survived in the previous game or not, as a replacement will be there instead. I haven't played TWD so I can't comment on that, but aren't they fundamentally different games, with completely different budgets?

I also understand your wish for looking for something emotional in the works you read. I, too, search for an experience I can't get anywhere else, but it doesn't mean something can't be both thought-provoking and emotionally-moving - a deep, lasting impression over a few cheap thrills.

I want to comment on a particular statement you made.

21 hours ago, LemiusK said:

And let me reiterate what I meant by VNs with choices feel more "personal." By "personal," I meant that these stories' bad ends or good ends feel more impactful because I was the one leading up to them. I was the one who either earned that happy ending, or deserve that bad one. Whether it's a bad end or a good one, it's my decision, I've earned it because of my personality and my decision-making.

Since I played 428 Shibuya recently (and stopped after a couple of hours) and you seem to like it, I wonder how do you feel about this game's choice system. The story and the characters are interesting, as is the conflict in general and the misadventures that the characters get involved with. However, in the game, you are constantly bombarded with nonsensical Bad ENDs. I like the fact that there are multiple protagonists and they can help each other get out of sticky situations, and also the concept of choices from one character affecting the story of another, but more often than not, you are getting Game Over due to issues that you have absolutely no control over - it was all pre-determined. None of this feels fair or earned, and when you switch character to fix the problem, it doesn't feel smart or rewarding. Despite liking the game, I unceremoniously decided to take a break after getting three Bad Ends within ten minutes.

3 hours ago, Ramaladni said:

With my statement, I had meant that if the alternative is a lousy choice system, I would prefer to have a few choices that are meaningful instead of extra fluff. If you're not familiar with those games, they're the very reason why people nowadays instantly default to guides and use walkthroughs even for games with meaningful and thought out choice systems.

Well, I understand that sentiment at least. I find myself having to use walkthroughs more than half of the times, but not for the reason you stated. See, I don't really mind that much if a choice system is illogical or arbitrary. It's more fun that way IMO. Real life is illogical too sometimes, and even arbitrary. Random events occur all the time. I don't mind walking into an adventure where I don't know what would happen if I pick Choice A or Choice B. It's more fun that way not knowing what to expect in life; makes things unpredictable and spices things up.

In fact, if anything, I don't rely on walkthroughs during my first playthrough, and just let myself walk blindly into the game to see what kinds of crazy adventure I'd end up in.

Sure, it's definitely annoying when choices are illogical and lead you to bad ends that don't make sense, but see, I'm someone who thinks the opposite of what you think. I'd rather have a game that offers me many arbitrary choices instead of offering me none and leaving me bored with some linear reading. I'd rather be engaged by an interactive experience than just sit there passively. I'm like a child who needs to be entertained, especially with my lack in attention span.

Look, just for the record, I'm not criticising VNs without choices. I mean, I thought Muv-Luv Alternative was great, and it had no branching routes at all. All I'm saying is, that lack of stimulation in VNs without choices makes me feel like I'd much rather be playing something more engaging, that's all.

Let me further emphasize just how wonderful it is to be reading a VN with choices. Take Aoishiro, for example. There's a "Normal End" near the beginning where, if you choose to (Aoishiro spoiler)

Spoiler

go home instead of braving the storm, you go home, and the game ends.

It might seem like a lackluster ending to some, but I like that there's such a sensible option available to me, because I get to weigh the consequences of my decisions later on, whether if having that ending is happier than what the rest of my adventure in Aoishiro would have offered. There's an active player engagement here that gives me a proper stake in what I'm playing. Because I'm put in the protagonist's shoes, or rather, perspective, I'm given awareness of the kind of consequence she would face should she choose a different fate than the one I mentioned above. It's just so much deeper than just a linear read-through where the protagonist has a dilemma over the same decisions, but you don't get an active role in participating in said decision.
 

3 hours ago, Ramaladni said:

I think it's a little ironic that you singled out ME3 since it doesn't matter if Legion survived in the previous game or not, as a replacement will be there instead.

That's a rather unfair way of singling out a flaw in ME3's choice system IMO. Legion being replaced isn't some arbitrary result that doesn't matter. Guess what? Soldiers get replaced in real life too. It happens. It's a result of your comrades dying in war and are in turn replaced by someone else. It happens. It's not arbitrary, and certainly not logical.

And besides, I think you're simplifying things in a logical, almost mathematical way rather than in an emotional manner. Games with choices, not just Mass Effect, were never really about whether if choices make sense, for me at least; they were about whether if they made me feel something significant. Legion gets replaced if he doesn't survive? Doesn't matter to me, because the consequence of Legion dying wasn't whether if I'll lose an additional soldier for the war effort. The consequence of Legion dying was that my beloved comrade, Legion, would no longer be there in ME3. THAT's the consequence, not some superficial consequence like "you don't get a super robot fighting by your side." So YES, Legion dying DID matter to me, someone who actually likes the character and wanted to see him just for one more game. It would be another matter entirely if you tell me Legion survives anyway even if he dies in ME2. Now THAT, that would make his death meaningless.

That being said, yes, if Legion dying had a bigger impact like, you losing the final battle, that would indeed make his death more meaningful. But to be frank, I think that's just being needy and demanding, not to mention having unrealistic expectations. Do you know how difficult it is just to design a basic choice-based game with three branches? I've been a fan of choice-based games for such a long time, so I've done my share of research on the branching system and how they are designed. It's a very arduous task, so I could compromise a little and have choices that would still meaning something to me on SOME emotional level rather than no choices at all.

Going back as to whether Legion surviving has meaning or not. Much like visual novels, designing choice-based games is an art. Visual novels use the aspects of visual novels to make the story deeper and more emotional than your typical literature novel with no pictures or music. Likewise, Bioware has utilized the choices offered in ME2 to make the story far more emotional as well. Do you know what happens in ME3 if Legion doesn't survive? You don't need to make a cruel decision whether if Tali gets to live. You don't need to suffer through the tragic dilemma that's to come had Legion survived. The Legion/Tali dilemma has to be the second most emotional moment in ME3, and I'm thankful that Bioware has wisely utilized such an arbitrary factor (whether if one of your soldiers survived or not) and turned it into something deep and meaningful. And it gets even better when you learn that there's a way to sort of "save both" based on the decisions in your previous games. And before you criticize this, I know that Legion dies either way in ME3, but there's a difference in the way he dies depending on whether if you sacrifice him for Tali or not. That difference is very important and DOES matter, because you have to (ME3 spoiler)

Spoiler

shoot him in the f***ing head if you choose to sacrifice him for Tali! LOL!

So no, it's not ironic that I singled out ME3, since the choices there do offer the kind of emotional impact I was talking about. It's just a matter of your perspective whether that impact is effective or not.

 

3 hours ago, Ramaladni said:

I haven't played TWD so I can't comment on that, but aren't they fundamentally different games, with completely different budgets?

Well, yes, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that TWD offers far more superficial choices that truly have no impact. And having a lower budget doesn't justify the laziness of Telltale Games, because you know what? The Wolf Among Us, also by Telltale Games, actually has the kind of emotional impact that I was talking about because of a meaningful choice-based system, so saying that they have a low budget just sounds like a cheap excuse to make games cheap and profitable.

 

3 hours ago, Ramaladni said:

I also understand your wish for looking for something emotional in the works you read. I, too, search for an experience I can't get anywhere else, but it doesn't mean something can't be both thought-provoking and emotionally-moving - a deep, lasting impression over a few cheap thrills.

Well, of course stories can be both thought-provoking and emotionally-moving. If there's a story out there like that, it would have attained a good balance, and I would certainly acknowledge its quality. But that still doesn't mean I would care much for the "thought-provoking" part of the story, however. You can have as deep and lasting impression as you like, but if the story material is way too complicated and obtuse for my liking, then I don't really care much for it. I don't really care much for Ever17's needlessly complicated three-dimensional/four-dimensional theory, for example. Such complicated storylines are as superficial to me as your aforementioned "cheap thrill," ironically. I'm afraid that's just how interested I am in thought-provoking stories.

 

3 hours ago, Ramaladni said:

I want to comment on a particular statement you made.

Since I played 428 Shibuya recently (and stopped after a couple of hours) and you seem to like it, I wonder how do you feel about this game's choice system. The story and the characters are interesting, as is the conflict in general and the misadventures that the characters get involved with. However, in the game, you are constantly bombarded with nonsensical Bad ENDs. I like the fact that there are multiple protagonists and they can help each other get out of sticky situations, and also the concept of choices from one character affecting the story of another, but more often than not, you are getting Game Over due to issues that you have absolutely no control over - it was all pre-determined. None of this feels fair or earned, and when you switch character to fix the problem, it doesn't feel smart or rewarding. Despite liking the game, I unceremoniously decided to take a break after getting three Bad Ends within ten minutes.

I've already explained how I feel towards arbitrary choice-systems in the first paragraph of this post. Like I have said, I don't mind walking blindly into a random whacky adventure where I might end up in some illogical place because of a certain choice I made. It can be annoying at times, but the alternative (having no choice at all) is just so much more boring. I'd rather a game developer TRY to make some meaning out of a choice rather than give up and not offer any choice at all.

Furthermore, the choices do have far more logical impact down the line (especially during the final level), so you're missing out. It's notoriously difficult to get the Normal End of Shibuya Scramble because the choices there are rather obtuse, but they DO make sense when you figure out what went wrong. It makes that final happy ending much more rewarding, even if all the earlier endings didn't.

And it's funny you should use the term, "pre-determined." That does play a small role in the story. There's kinda a reason why you have to put so much effort into ensuring everything goes right, and there's a reason why so many of the decisions feel arbitrary and determined by a random factor. You could almost say that it's by sheer luck that these characters avoid those Bad Ends. Yes, luck does play a factor here, and there's a small reason why this is so. It might not be a very satisfying reason for many people (possibly yourself), but for me, I like that luck and destiny played such a role. It makes me feel good somehow about all the decisions these colorful characters had to make to get there, the happy end. But I'm saying too much. It's best that you discover it on your own, that little mention of predeterminism and fate by Kano in the end.

And besides, those nonsensical Bad Ends are humorous enough to keep me entertained. I had fun, and you should too, because the story gets a lot darker and less funny as it goes on... Yeah. Try and have fun while you can. lol Because I ended up crying a lot more than laughing by the end.

Edited November 26, 2018 by LemiusK