Jump to content
  • entries
    6
  • comments
    134
  • views
    1708

Fat acceptance and the lack of fat characters on VNs


*anoyoruniyakusokushita

2036 views

All your life you've probably heard that fat is ugly. Most SJWs say no, fat is beautiful. Beauty is subjective, it depends on the viewer. Which means people will have different opinions on what it's beautiful or ugly. I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is the notion that every fat person is unattractive. This does not mean people who think like that are the ones to blame. Society is at fault here. Because of this toxic notion, many people try desperately to lose weight, end up having eating disorders, and sometimes are even driven to suicide. This is not fine.

So, how can we end that toxic notion? I say the easiest way is through media. Media can alter the way we think and perceive the world. It has done that for both good and bad causes, including the perpetuation of the present beauty standard. And that takes us to the second point: lack of fat characters on VNs. (doesn't include characters whose fat is almost entirely concentrated on their chest)

Take a look at the eroge releases of this month. And at the otomege. I bet not a single game features a fat person as a heroine or as the protagonist. "But", you might argue, "Japanese do not find fat females or fat males attractive."

Yeah, one of the reasons they do not find fat people attractive is because they ALMOST NEVER APPEAR IN ENTERTAINMENT MEDIA. Yes, I'm aware they had this notion before entertainment media was even a thing. But if media stopped fully supporting that notion, probably people would change their mindset. 

Also, I don't mean they should put a 100% fat cast, as such VN would probably be a failure in sales, but at least including one fat heroine would be nice. This way, if players didn't like that fat character at all, they could just skip her route. (but I'm sure some would eventually, by knowing said character better in the common route, come to like her). So, as more players started accepting more fat heroines, they could slowly become a very common thing. This would be a great way to change people's mindset about beauty.

"But", you might argue again, "there are almost no fat people in Japan." 

Yes, you are correct. There are very few fat people on Japan. But you know what else almost does not exist in Japan? Blonde people. Does this prevent Japanese eroge players from liking blonde heroines? In no way! Also, most people in Japan probably don't even believe nekomimi exist. And this doesn't prevent them from liking them as well. Fat people should be the same way.

So, that's it for today. Hope you enjoyed the post!

32 Comments


Recommended Comments



10 minutes ago, Kiriririri said:

Being fat is not healthy and I don't think we should encourage people to keep their life unhealthy.

Eating junk food is not healthy. Most fat people eat junk food, that's why most of them are unhealthy, not because they are fat. Of course being excessively fat is unhealthy, but every person has the right to choose what they will eat and should be respected by everyone.

Also, I'm not encouraging anyone to be fat. I'm just saying we should learn to be more accepting of people, whatever their choice of lifestyle may be. What is really wrong is how media encourages people to be thin, which is not healthy at all, and can even lead to eating disorders, low self-esteem and depression.

Your point being? There are still VERY FEW VNs with fat heroines, and that's what I'm complaining about. Also, second VN doesn't have fat heroines, just a girl with giant boobs.

Edited by *anoyoruniyakusokushita
Link to comment

The VN market will not put fat people on the cast because its a risky movement, considering that the majority of novels have small sales compared to other things on media and that the majority of consumers don't find fat people attractive, even if it is a small drop in the sales, it's less money entering to a very closed niche that most of the companies don't have economic power to afford a title without profit. Remeber that only a art change make smee last title drop more than 50% in sales. The companies have 0 reason to take a risk change.

Link to comment
17 minutes ago, Norleas said:

The VN market will not put fat people on the cast because its a risky movement, considering that the majority of novels have small sales compared to other things on media and that the majority of consumers don't find fat people attractive, even if it is a small drop in the sales, it's less money entering to a very closed niche that most of the companies don't have economic power to afford a title without profit. Remeber that only a art change make smee last title drop more than 50% in sales. The companies have 0 reason to take a risk change.

Except an art change will affect the entire game, whereas just including one fat heroine won't. As I said, if the players don't like her, they can simply avoid her route and play the other heroines'. Now, when it comes to art change, they can't do that, because the other artist (who, I presume, they liked most) didn't draw anything in that game, that's why it dropped sales.

Link to comment
24 minutes ago, *anoyoruniyakusokushita said:

Your point being? There are still VERY FEW VNs with fat heroines, and that's what I'm complaining about. Also, second VN doesn't have fat heroines, just a girl with giant boobs.

No, the second VN does have a fat heroine that does have an eating disorder.

Link to comment
5 minutes ago, Kiriririri said:

No, the second VN does have a fat heroine that does have an eating disorder.

Just checked the gallery of the VN. That's really awesome. I guess I'll play this one when it comes out, then. It's a shame she just gets fat as a result of an eating disorder, though. But anyway, thanks for the rec.

Just now, Asonn said:

you know Japan is awesome for having a fat tax, if you are fat you have to pay money. They should encourage this throughout the world. it's not about being attractive is about a healthy life style. and btw I'm fat and I agree cause ppl pushing me to loose weight doesn't help, but taking my money away so I can't buy porn games certainly would. 

That is not awesome, that is a terrible thing. One thing is to be a doctor and to advise an obese patient to lose weight, but to take money away from people just because they aren't adopting a certain lifestyle is not a good thing. Again, being fat =/= being unhealthy. 

Just now, Asonn said:

And that comes to the conclusion don't make fat attractive cause it shouldn't be. 

This is your opinion, which is probably based on societal standards. On Renaissance, fat women were considered the beauty standard. There is no such a thing as "shouldn't be attractive".

Edited by *anoyoruniyakusokushita
Link to comment
1 minute ago, Asonn said:

Okay that is a lie. being fat doesn't equal unhealthy????? are you kidding mo or ignorant?! Overweight and obesity may increase the risk of many health problems, including diabetes, heart disease, and certain cancers. I recommend you to read this. https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-topics/weight-control/health_risks_being_overweight/Pages/health-risks-being-overweight.aspx

The thing is, most of those data associating overweight to health problems are taken from researches with 'issues'. Like, they pick groups of overweight people and compare their health to thinner people, and, when they see overweight people have a lot more health problems, they assume it's because of the weight. But that's not true, the problem is not the overweight, but that most fat people eat unhealthy food and/or don't exercise much. 

Even if overweight itself were a problem, if a person doesn't want to lose weight, I don't think that person should be forced to by taking their money away or fat-shaming them, which will only make their health worse.

6 minutes ago, Asonn said:

now some people find fat people attractive but it shouldn't be. you want to fat to be a beauty standard.. why? why do you want to make it a standard??? not saying that is bad to fall in love with a person that is fat. but don't be all you know that person is beautiful and I support her life style. that is my problem. and if you find it attractive guess what that is your dirty little fetish. good for you. 

I don't want it to make it a beauty standard. I just want people to open their eyes and reject the idea that fat = ugly, which is taking over our society nowadays. There aren't fat women on Miss Universe contest, there aren't fat princesses on disney movies, there aren't badass fat Marvel characters, and there is a fat-phobic president. Like, seriously? I also want to end the "thin" beauty standard. Being thin is unhealthy, as it makes you more susceptible to viruses, and this standard causes people to have mental issues while trying to lose weight in order to fit society's standards.

I don't want one body type to be considered beautiful. I don't want standards. I just want people to be considered beautiful by society, whatever their body type, or skin color may be.

Link to comment

Attractiveness should be a moot concept here.

Whether someone finds obesity attractive or not is completely irrelevant, and even damaging to the subject in particular. Media should never glamorise something that is pretty much wrong on almost every aspect, in any medium. I don't really mind having fat characters either, but it's as if we're supposed to "accept" it is like telling me to accept someone who has a smoking addiction. Both are wrong, and everyone who is associated with either should be encouraged to steer in the complete opposite direction.

Furthermore, why does it need representation in media? I personally look for what makes a character a character, not an image on a screen. Being fat is completely superficial towards the arc of the character, unless of course it's used as a plot device. 

I want character diversity in fiction, not body shape diversity. (Lolis are nice, though. :yumiko: )

Link to comment
10 minutes ago, *anoyoruniyakusokushita said:

Except an art change will affect the entire game, whereas just including one fat heroine won't. As I said, if the players don't like her, they can simply avoid her route and play the other heroines'. Now, when it comes to art change, they can't do that, because the other artist (who, I presume, they liked most) didn't draw anything in that game, that's why it dropped sales.

The point is that we don't know if they will buy and only avoid that route or they will simply don't buy the game, i know some people that only buy a vn if at the first view like all the heroines, the fact is that we don't have a precedent to conclude how the sales will be.

Do you think that a standard Japanese guy, if have to choose between similar moeges will buy a title that he like all the heroines designs or a title that will have one heroine that he think that the design is ugly?

You see innovation last years in the vn market? The status quo is delivering good numbers so why they will not bother entering in waters that they dont know.

Link to comment

Body;

Hmmm. So you're saying a producer should run the risk of being shat on by consumers or making losses because you want him to push a minor agenda? 

Now, everyone possesses an individual opinion about something. That is "Subjective". When majority of the individuals possess a similar opinion, it becomes "Objective". It becomes fact

Average individual: Killing is bad.

Murderer: Killing is good/necessary. 

Two opinions. Yet one has transcended to become fact due to an overwhelming majority. This is non debatable. Why? Because what i'm saying is FACT.

Unfortunately those who share your opinion are a vast minority. Fat people are humans, they deserve human rights. They deserve the same benefits every human gets not including media coverage. That is a privilege that is determined by society.

"Bald head and thick beards."

"6'0 foot tall"

"Slim waist big ass"

"Plot/Tits"

These are various "trends" or preferences of society of the now. So in various media, they get most of the attention. Those are the demands of society because they are Visually appealing.

Conclusion;

Being fat is optional. Those who are fat should not suffer socially because of it. They deserve to be treated like everyone else.

On the same vein, those who are fat should be treated like everybody else. They should not be given any unnecessary praise or recognition separate from what society wants.

They made their choice. They chose to eat. Whether it benefits the individual or not is not something that should capture attention. They deserve neither positive nor negative appraisals. Like Snailmusk said in the previous post, there are much, much bigger problems than positively approving the obese.

TL;DR:

Society decides what it wants at the end of the day. If it ain't the obese, you gotta wait till their time comes. There/this was/is a time were anorexia (or extremely slim to be more precise) was/is a thing. There was a time where chubby/meaty was a thing. Given the fickle nature of humanity, obesity will become a thing. Push it's agenda then, not now.
 

P.S read this passively/superficially. Do not read tones or meanings into it, or it will ruin the simplicity of my message. While i was typing i possessed nothing but a poker face and a calm demeanor. Please do not visualize anything else while reading. Thank you.

Edited by dfbreezy
Link to comment
29 minutes ago, Asonn said:

being thin?! no again do your research. being anorexic is unhealthy that lowers your immune system. and they should find help as well. thin and having curves that is how it should be. and I agree some people of the miss universe are having a form of anorexia and they shouldn't be allowed to enter cause a TV program should never and than never promote being too fat or being to thin. 

By thin I mean underweight, not what people call "normal". By allowing any kind of people to enter a TV program, you wouldn't be promoting anything. You would just make people feel better about themselves and reject useless standards.

 

32 minutes ago, Snailmusk said:

Attractiveness should be a moot concept here.

Whether someone finds obesity attractive or not is completely irrelevant, and even damaging to the subject in particular. Media should never glamorise something that is pretty much wrong on almost every aspect, in any medium. I don't really mind having fat characters either, but it's as if we're supposed to "accept" it is like telling me to accept someone who has a smoking addiction. Both are wrong, and everyone who is associated with either should be encouraged to steer in the complete opposite direction.

I don't get why being a part of media makes it "glamorising". There is homicide in media, there is rape, there is suffering. Are they glamorising those things? I don't think so. They are just there. I'm not saying in any way overweight people are like bad things like that, but including fat characters in media is not glamorising them as much as including those things is not glamorising either.

Also, I think you are trying to let media dictate what is right and what is wrong. Being fat is not harming anyone. Even if a person is obese, it's their choice to be, and they shouldn't be criticized for that, as they are capable of knowing what's best for them.

36 minutes ago, Snailmusk said:

Furthermore, why does it need representation in media? I personally look for what makes a character a character, not an image on a screen. Being fat is completely superficial towards the arc of the character, unless of course it's used as a plot device. 

I want character diversity in fiction, not body shape diversity. (Lolis are nice, though. :yumiko: )

It needs representation so that the flawed beauty 'standard' we have know can finally end. The best way to destroy that toxic concept is imo through media.

38 minutes ago, Norleas said:

The point is that we don't know if they will buy and only avoid that route or they will simply don't buy the game, i know some people that only buy a vn if at the first view like all the heroines, the fact is that we don't have a precedent to conclude how the sales will be.

Do you think that a standard Japanese guy, if have to choose between similar moeges will buy a title that he like all the heroines designs or a title that will have one heroine that he think that the design is ugly?

You see innovation last years in the vn market? The status quo is delivering good numbers so why they will not bother entering in waters that they dont know.

Personally, there has been very very few VNs whose heroines I liked without any exceptions. And I believe it's the same with Japanese people. I don't think they will find all heroines of a game attractive, much less like all of them. Besides, a lot of factors come into play when choosing an eroge to play; character design is just one of them.

39 minutes ago, dfbreezy said:

Body;

Hmmm. So you're saying a producer should run the risk of being shat on by consumers or making losses because you want him to push a minor agenda? 

Now, everyone possesses an individual opinion about something. That is "Subjective". When majority of the individuals possess a similar opinion, it becomes "Objective". It becomes fact

What??? Sorry, but that's not what objective means.

"not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased"

Just because most people think it is a certain way doesn't make it a fact, nor does it prevent that thinking from being influenced by personal feelings and prejudice. Rather, the whole notion of fat = ugly is a societal bias.

42 minutes ago, dfbreezy said:

Average individual: Killing is bad.

Murderer: Killing is good/necessary. 

Two opinions. Yet one has transcended to become fact due to an overwhelming majority. This is non debatable. Why? Because what i'm saying is FACT.

An opinion is never a fact. That's why it's called opinion. A fact is something irrefutable.

44 minutes ago, dfbreezy said:

Being fat is optional. Those who are fat should not suffer socially because of it. They deserve to be treated like everyone else.

On the same vein, those who are fat should be treated like everybody else. They should not be given any unnecessary praise or recognition separate from what society wants.

They made their choice. They chose to eat. Whether it benefits the individual or not is not something that should capture attention. They deserve neither positive nor negative appraisals. Like Snailmusk said in the previous post, there are much, much bigger problems than positively approving the obese.

I agree with you here and I'm not seeking privileges for fat people. If they were really treated like everyone else, they would get as much media coverage as thin people get. So, no, fat people are not being treated like everyone else. If you think so, it's probably because you aren't one and doesn't know how it feels to be one.

46 minutes ago, dfbreezy said:

Society decides what it wants at the end of the day. If it ain't the obese, you gotta wait till their time comes. There/this was/is a time were anorexia (or extremely slim to be more precise) was/is a thing. There was a time where chubby/meaty was a thing. Given the fickle nature of humanity, obesity will become a thing. Push it's agenda then, not now.

Yeah, there was also a time when white skin was the thing so all we had to do was wait for black skin to become a thing, right?

This is not how things work. We can't let society do whatever it wants, because if we did that, things would be much worse. I'm not gonna wait for a certain group to be in the spotlight because that's not what I want; I want equality, not privileges.

49 minutes ago, dfbreezy said:

P.S read this passively/superficially. Do not read tones or meanings into it, or it will ruin the simplicity of my message. While i was typing i possessed nothing but a poker face and a calm demeanor. Please do not visualize anything else while reading. Thank you.

???

Link to comment
1 minute ago, *anoyoruniyakusokushita said:

Also, I think you are trying to let media dictate what is right and what is wrong. Being fat is not harming anyone. Even if a person is obese, it's their choice to be, and they shouldn't be criticized for that, as they are capable of knowing what's best for them.

No.

Link to comment
3 minutes ago, *anoyoruniyakusokushita said:

Also, I think you are trying to let media dictate what is right and what is wrong. Being fat is not harming anyone. Even if a person is obese, it's their choice to be, and they shouldn't be criticized for that, as they are capable of knowing what's best for them.

This can't be what you truly think. Please. The same could be said for someone with a smoking addiction, it's dreadful, THIS is a terrible message.

Edited by Snailmusk
Link to comment
15 minutes ago, Snailmusk said:

This can't be what you truly think. Please. The same could be said for someone with a smoking addiction, it's dreadful, THIS is a terrible message.

People with smoking addiction appear all the time in anime. This does not mean they are glorifying it. But do they present fat characters, which are much more healthy than smoking people? No!

So what if a person doesn't want to extend their lifespan for a just a few years? It's their choice.

@Norleas, one thing I'd like to add to my response: if they don't want to risk including fat heroines, they could start with the protagonist. Noone would really care if he's pretty or not, anyway.

Edited by *anoyoruniyakusokushita
Link to comment
Just now, *anoyoruniyakusokushita said:

People with smoking addiction appear all the time in anime. This does not mean they are glorifying it. But do they present fat characters, which are much more healthy than smoking people? No!

So what if a person doesn't want to extend their lifespan for a just a few years? It's their choice.

It's not just lifespan, it makes simple tasks more difficult, it induces chronic pain, forces you to alter your lifestyle to one that is more inhibiting, take medicine, contract diabetes, the list goes on (it really does). There is nothing right about it, and if people make a 'choice' like it, they should be at least notified of it. Never will I accept that kind of lifestyle, and neither should anyone else.

And for the former statement, lifestyle diversity is meaningless. Smoking characters can disappear from media entirely, I don't care. Obese people can disappear from media entirely, I don't care. These are superficial traits, and don't deserve any recognition in media. If it's there, then sure, whatever, but they aren't obligated to exist either.

Link to comment
20 minutes ago, *anoyoruniyakusokushita said:

Even if a person is obese, it's their choice to be, and they shouldn't be criticized for that, as they are capable of knowing what's best for them.

Showing fat people is one thing, showing obese as 100% healthy is another. In a great number of countries obesity is considered a disease and in some of them a public epidemic, thinking that each people know what's best for them is a generalization, do you think that a person with no mental stability know what is best to him? or a high school student have experience, knowledge or maturity to decide things like that.

41 minutes ago, *anoyoruniyakusokushita said:

they could start with the protagonist. Noone would really care if he's pretty or not, anyway.

This could be a double edge sword, in the same way that fat consumers would see them represented, a number of people tend to see protagonists as a imaginary projection of what themselves could be.

Link to comment
37 minutes ago, Norleas said:

Showing fat people is one thing, showing obese as 100% healthy is another. In a great number of countries obesity is considered a disease and in some of them a public epidemic, thinking that each people know what's best for them is a generalization, do you think that a person with no mental stability know what is best to him? or a high school student have experience, knowledge or maturity to decide things like that.

I never said anything about portraying obesity as 100% healthy. What I want is to portray overweight people as beautiful.

37 minutes ago, Norleas said:

This could be a double edge sword, in the same way that fat consumers would see them represented, a number of people tend to see protagonists as a imaginary projection of what themselves could be.

I could tell you numerous instances in which I've seen eroge protagonists who are different from your average Japanese eroge nerd. Some are shotas, some are overpowered teens, some are traps, and let's not forget that most of them are high schoolers.

Plus, Accel World has been pretty successful in Japan.

Link to comment
5 hours ago, *anoyoruniyakusokushita said:

What??? Sorry, but that's not what objective means.

"not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased"

Just because most people think it is a certain way doesn't make it a fact, nor does it prevent that thinking from being influenced by personal feelings and prejudice. Rather, the whole notion of fat = ugly is a societal bias.

An opinion is never a fact. That's why it's called opinion. A fact is something irrefutable.

I agree with you here and I'm not seeking privileges for fat people. If they were really treated like everyone else, they would get as much media coverage as thin people get. So, no, fat people are not being treated like everyone else. If you think so, it's probably because you aren't one and doesn't know how it feels to be one.

Yeah, there was also a time when white skin was the thing so all we had to do was wait for black skin to become a thing, right?

This is not how things work. We can't let society do whatever it wants, because if we did that, things would be much worse. I'm not gonna wait for a certain group to be in the spotlight because that's not what I want; I want equality, not privileges.

???

Thinking like that is exactly why most people get up and rebel about various things. You don't understand the deeper mechanisms that go into running the world. What i said may not be 100% lexical, but it is 100% Philosophical and Factual

If you think an "opinion" can never become fact then you have another thing coming friend. Opinions run this world. They run demand and supply, basically markets and social preferences. They control morality. They control politics. They control everyone.

Consider Opinions as not some dictionary word, but as a facet to human existence. 

Can you refute that killing is bad? Yes of course, but not without it's social repercussions. A fact, lexically, is something that is totally accepted by society. As such, if the majority of society take their opinion and force it upon the minority, it becomes fact. That my friend, is how the world works. If you feel you still don't understand this fact, i'm currently shoving my opinion on you as a minority since mine generally aligns with the majority.

Do you also understand the term "Privilege"? A Privilege is something that is earned  by great feats and hard work. It's not given out because we feel pity. Like i said, society decides who gets the privileges and at what time, so you're pointlessly advocating when it's time is not here. Until fat people become a thing, this is as productive as ignoring climate change or since you want media attention, Actually telling a good story and having characters not be evaluated on how they look but what they are there for. 

This is exactly how things work my friend, you just don't know it. I've spent years working in politics, so i know very well how popular demand and societies preference works. So that is why i can calmly tell you that you're not going to move society by crying out like this. 

Do not presume i do not know the pain of fat people, @anoyoruniyakusokushita. I was fat from grade school to junior high. I suffered ridicule and various verbal abuse at that time because i was fat, short and most of all ugly

I was one of those kids you'd describe as "puberty hit them like a train". In senior high i lost all my weight. I was still the same human being, no surgeries, no cosmetics, yet i had become hot  and attractive (and still am).

All the things i dreamed about when i was fat (mostly nice girls) came after me. I was able to partake in sports without stopping to breathe a tankard of air. I didn't get sick as often. i could sleep without feeling like i was choking myself. This, This is the benefit of losing weight. There is no benefit in gaining it. Do not praise the unwell just because you want to feel good about it. 

In the Final Fantasy XV OVA, the yellow haired guy (forgot his name) was fat as a kid. Then inspired by the protag of the anime/game, he lost weight. To someone who has been obese before, that montage were he was working to better himself was nothing short of inspirational. That my friend is what you should be advocating for, not showing them as they are and saying "well it's fine right? they're beautiful inside even if they might be dying."

Also, i find it strange that you did not challenge my statement regarding developers. At least that much you do understand. As a developer and even as a formerly obese person, never did it cross my mind to add a fat character to Episicava, even as a cameo.

Why the hell would i want to encourage people to suffer physically like i did? That would be madness on my part, i'm afraid. That is why i said fat people should not be insulted or bullied because i know the pain of that. But they should not be praised because i also know the danger in that.

 

TL;DR:

The obese are beautiful. they definitely are since i was. But they are beautiful on the inside, not the outside. Harsh, but it's a fact. Very few people want to look at someone with enough rolls to hide items. Even fewer want to see them in sexual media like eroge. But you might be in luck though. Apparently "BBW" or obese people get quite a bit of attention in porn.

Edited by dfbreezy
Link to comment

Certain things are glamourized in this world. Saying we should include fat characters in our generally idealized stories is basically saying we as a society should shift the set of things we glamorize so that it makes a minority feel better.

Atm, what we as a society glamorize is mostly depends on what the masses like, and what companies try to propagate to forward their brands and ventures.

IMO, ideally, you should train people to recognize these societal glorifications for what they are, which is just things to be enjoyed, not reflections of the truth. You shouldn't advocate for a different set of glorifications in order to lull fat people to thinking the reality is some how kinder for it. The reality is what it is.

I think there was a line of criticism against LN's for glorifying being living an otaku lifestyle. If there was a parallel universe where such otaku-glorifiying LN's didn't exist (that was like 15 years ago), that would be fine, too. I'm sure there were and are a lot of otaku who felt pressure (both external, from people's opinions, and internal, from lack of validation) from the type of lifestyle they chose/fell into.

The main issue with fat people is not the difference of preference (that should very much be allowed), but existing prejudice. Fat people shouldn't be bullied in school, or insulted anywhere. But those are difficult challenges that revolve around human nature. If your fat and some asshole insults you based on that, that's because they are an asshole, and not particularly because you are fat. Or they have a prejudice. The prejudice, and more importantly, how people act on that prejudice, is the more productive and realistic issue to tackle.

 

Edited by Chronopolis
Link to comment
28 minutes ago, dfbreezy said:

Thinking like that is exactly why most people get up and rebel about various things. You don't understand the deeper mechanisms that go into running the world. What i said may not be 100% lexical, but it is 100% Philosophical and Factual

If you think an "opinion" can never become fact then you have another thing coming friend. Opinions run this world. They run demand and supply, basically markets and social preferences. They control morality. They control politics. They control everyone.

Consider Opinions as not some dictionary word, but as a facet to human existence. 

Can you refute that killing is bad? Yes of course, but not without it's social repercussions. A fact, lexically, is something that is totally accepted by society. As such, if the majority of society take their opinion and force it upon the minority, it becomes fact. That my friend, is how the world works. If you feel you still don't understand this fact, i'm currently shoving my opinion on you as a minority since mine generally aligns with the majority.

I get where you're coming from, but even though society has taken something as a fact, it doesn't mean it can later revoke that. If a "fact" was unchangeable, we would still believe that black people are wild human beings that are intellectually inferior to the white. So, what I'm trying to do is contribute to a collective effort of changing those so-called "facts". And media attention would certainly be helpful.

33 minutes ago, dfbreezy said:

Do you also understand the term "Privilege"? A Privilege is something that is earned  by great feats and hard work. It's not given out because we feel pity. Like i said, society decides who gets the privileges and at what time, so you're pointlessly advocating when it's time is not here. Until fat people become a thing, this is as productive as ignoring climate change or since you want media attention, Actually telling a good story and having characters not be evaluated on how they look but what they are there for. 

Sorry, but privileges are not 'earned'. They are undeserved and usually inborn. White privilege, cis privilege, straight privilege, abled privilege, all those are unfair privileges that should never exist. Do you really think we should just keep our mouths shut while people get privileges based on their skin color or sexual orientation, which have nothing to do with their character? Because I don't.

In an ideal world, people would only see characters by what's inside them, but unfortunately, we do not live in one. That's why so many young girls are so obsessed with losing weight and fitting social beauty standards. And if appearances didn't matter, then having more fat characters wouldn't be a problem, right?

41 minutes ago, dfbreezy said:

This is exactly how things work my friend, you just don't know it. I've spent years working in politics, so i know very well how popular demand and societies preference works. So that is why i can calmly tell you that you're not going to move society by crying out like this. 

I'm not expecting to move society with my blog posts. I'm just trying to contribute as much as I can to social justice.

42 minutes ago, dfbreezy said:

Do not presume i do not know the pain of fat people, @anoyoruniyakusokushita. I was fat from grade school to junior high. I suffered ridicule and various verbal abuse at that time because i was fat, short and most of all ugly

I was one of those kids you'd describe as "puberty hit them like a train". In senior high i lost all my weight. I was still the same human being, no surgeries, no cosmetics, yet i had become hot  and attractive (and still am).

All the things i dreamed about when i was fat (mostly nice girls) came after me. I was able to partake in sports without stopping to breathe a tankard of air. I didn't get sick as often. i could sleep without feeling like i was choking myself. This, This is the benefit of losing weight. There is no benefit in gaining it. Do not praise the unwell just because you want to feel good about it. 

You realize you aren't proving any point here. This is the same of saying Michael Jackson received white privilege, thus, every black person should become white.

First, ugly is subjective. Second, do you think other children and adults deserve all that abuse just because people don't like how they look? What they did to you and do to many others is not fine. They are the ones who were wrong, not you. That's why they should have changed, not you. And third, just because you had luck doesn't mean other people will. So they will continue suffering. Even if they don't want to lose weight, they should be respected.

And one more thing. All those people that came after you after you became "attractive" (I get it that self-esteem is important, but self-entitling yourself as hot and attractive is rude) seem to be very superficial girls. I would never want to be around that kind of people. And I also understand your health benefits, but I believe a lot of people wouldn't want to submit themselves to heavy diets just so they can get a little more comfort; they should also be respected for their choice.

51 minutes ago, dfbreezy said:

In the Final Fantasy XV OVA, the yellow haired guy (forgot his name) was fat as a kid. Then inspired by the protag of the anime/game, he lost weight. To someone who has been obese before, that montage were he was working to better himself was nothing short of inspirational. That my friend is what you should be advocating for, not showing them as they are and saying "well it's fine right? they're beautiful inside even if they might be dying."

Why the hell would i want to encourage people to suffer physically like i did? That would be madness on my part, i'm afraid. That is why i said fat people should not be insulted or bullied because i know the pain of that. But they should not be praised because i also know the danger in that.

Being fat =/= dying, and no, I'm not saying they're just beautiful inside, a lot of them are also beautiful on the outside, but because of the big social bias, most people cannot see that.

I'm not encouraging or praising anyone's lifestyle nor do I wish such a thing is done. I just believe people wouldn't be wrong to praise someone they find beautiful, but unfortunately fat people aren't receiving such praise at all because society doesn't let that happen. 

56 minutes ago, dfbreezy said:

The obese are beautiful. they definitely are since i was. But they are beautiful on the inside, not the outside. Harsh, but it's a fact. Very few people want to look at someone with enough rolls to hide items. Even fewer want to see them in sexual media like eroge. But you might be in luck though. Apparently "BBW" or obese people get quite a bit of attention in porn.

As I've already explained, one of the reason people don't want to look at them is because society created this toxic "fact" that fat = ugly on the outside. But together we can end that. 

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Chronopolis said:

Certain things are glamourized in this world. Saying we should include fat characters in our generally idealized stories is basically saying we as a society should shift the set of things we glamorize so that it makes a minority feel better.

Atm, what we as a society glamorize is mostly depends on what the masses like, and what companies try to propagate to forward their brands and ventures.

IMO, ideally, you should train people to recognize these societal glorifications for what they are, which is just things to be enjoyed, not reflections of the truth. You shouldn't advocate for a different set of glorifications in order to lull fat people to thinking the reality is some how kinder for it. The reality is what it is.

You see, I don't think including fat characters in media is glamorizing them. First, because I'm not asking for fat characters to outnumber thin ones; I'm asking for, ideally, 50/50, or at least, 20/80. Second, because just including something in an idealized story does not mean you're glamorizing it. I don't think including people with black skin in media is glamorizing them, nor do I think including smokers in media is glamorizing them as well, and nor do I think depicting violence is glamorizing it. Of course some stuff will come out as glamorized, but this is a choice of the people behind that medium. Some things can come out as glamorized, some things can come out as bad/wrong, and some things can come out as neither of those. It depends on how the story is written. Third, because even in realistic and cynical medium those characters are underrepresented (except the ones that are depicted as dumb or gluttons).

My problem with the lack of fat characters in media is not that this might offend fat people (I don't think most get offended, actually), nor that it's not an accurate representation of reality, but that it contributes to the existence of a toxic notion.

1 hour ago, Chronopolis said:

I think there was a line of criticism against LN's for glorifying being living an otaku lifestyle. If there was a parallel universe where such otaku-glorifiying LN's didn't exist (that was like 15 years ago), that would be fine, too. I'm sure there were and are a lot of otaku who felt pressure (both external, from people's opinions, and internal, from lack of validation) from the type of lifestyle they chose/fell into.

The issue with those LNs is that they are aimed at otaku, and will usually only reach them. Thus, they don't help society sympathize with otaku.

1 hour ago, Chronopolis said:

The main issue with fat people is not the difference of preference (that should very much be allowed), but existing prejudice. Fat people shouldn't be bullied in school, or insulted anywhere. But those are difficult challenges that revolve around human nature. If your fat and some asshole insults you based on that, that's because they are an asshole, and not particularly because you are fat. Or they have a prejudice. The prejudice, and more importantly, how people act on that prejudice, is the more productive and realistic issue to tackle.

 

Is it really? Imo, it's much easier to take away a biased notion from people than to change something about human nature itself.

Link to comment

Hmm.. i think i'm beginning to understand you a little bit better @anoyoruniyakusokushita. And because i can understand your view a tad better, i can properly tailor my response this time.

Terribly sorry for the comparison, but how do you feel when you look at something... unappealing? There's that internal cringe, and the sub-conscious attempt to look away. That is the same as looking at the obese.

Like i said, The Obese are veritably beautiful internally. But externally they don't appeal to others. It is a human perception that is inborn. it is not acquired. That is why young kids look at fat people and point at them, sometimes saying nasty things. Their parents didn't consciously raise them to insult fat people. Neither did they miss out on the fat in cartoons like chowder. 

But on viewing a fat person, their mind instantly recognizes, that this is not how a human is supposed to be. As such, their embarrassing comments or reactions.

Society only plays a part as they grow up and become more accustomed to social relations. that's when the teasing begins among peers. That is when society is the culprit. 

Unfortunately, like you said, the perception of beauty is subjective. However, according to Pluto (or was it Aristotle?) beauty itself is objective in the world of forms while our subjective perception defines that beauty.

So given the psychology i have stated above, obese is not beautiful externally. And as such, a vast majority would agree with me. It is as unfortunate as humanity's innate warring nature. these are things that cannot be changed at the core without a catalyst or miracle.

Also i think it's be advisable to stop comparing the woes of the obese to the woes of the black. The two are NOT the same please. As someone who is black and has been obese i can say that with certainty. Please try to avoid using such a comparison since the margin is rather wide, and maybe utilize a comparison which is much more... compact.

Link to comment

Guest
This blog entry is now closed to further comments.
×
×
  • Create New...